Boss Boss revamp

Discussion in 'NPCs and Creatures' started by Plystire, Dec 8, 2013.


What is your opinion of the current bosses? (Ones you've encountered)


    0 vote(s)
  2. UFO Boss was too difficult, it needs to be rebalanced.

    2 vote(s)
  3. UFO Boss was just right

    4 vote(s)
  4. UFO Boss was too easy, it should be made more difficult with rebalancing.

    3 vote(s)
  5. Robot Boss was too difficult, it needs to be rebalanced.

    0 vote(s)
  6. Robot Boss was just right

    2 vote(s)
  7. Robot Boss was too easy, it should be made more difficult with rebalancing.

    7 vote(s)
  8. Dragon Boss was too difficult, it needs to be rebalanced.

    4 vote(s)
  9. Dragon Boss was just right

    0 vote(s)
  10. Dragon Boss was too easy, it should be made more difficult with rebalancing.

    4 vote(s)
  1. Plystire

    Plystire Star Wrangler

    Please read this full post before voting (and don't forget to select all that apply for you, as the goal here is to give devs some detailed feedback. Please only one vote per boss to keep it concise).

    I feel that the bosses have fallen to the same mechanics we've seen in the latest sandbox games. The penguins took me by surprise, I'll tell you that, and I loved the initial shock of penguins on my roof, struttin around in a tank and massive UFO! Once the shock wore off and the battle ensued, the straight-forward mechanics of it all became painfully obvious.

    I'm not necessarily talking about "cheesing the boss" by blocking him into a small dirt hut, or hiding in a hole where he can't reach you. If you wanna take your sweet little time widdling away at his health, you go for it, man! But when *I* fought the UFO boss, I wanted him off my rock and off my house ASAP as I was worried he would start destroying things (seeing the cracks on blocks when he shot them), so I was doing my darndest to kill the thing as quickly as possible, using any conventions available. This is when I noticed the little penguin sitting in the cockpit bubble on top of the UFO... so after his sweeping blast attack, I jumped as high as I could, let loose an arrow, and nailed the cockpit... sadly it did the same damage as hitting it anywhere else. What I'm talking about is the fact that every single mob in this game, bosses included, can be hit pretty much anywhere for the same amount of damage. I think weakpoints should be included for mobs, bosses specifically. Weakpoints add an extra element to the fight, to make it vastly more unique than your everyday naked monster.

    So I'm here to suggest a boss revamp. I believe it will make the fights far more balanced for their section of the game.

    #1: Penguin UFO
    Changes to character: Moves a bit slower during attacks. Can only damage player physically via bottom of ship (for squishing). UFO should have tiny lasers capable of shooting sideways, used if player has moved to the side or above the UFO. Other mechanics should remain the same.
    Weakpoint: Cockpit
    Intended assault methods: (Melee) Mount the ship by jumping on top of it and attacking cockpit up close (15%-20% of health). (Ranged) Attack from above to hit cockpit (8%-10% of health).
    Reactions to assault: If player is standing on the ship, small jets open on top of ship and fire, attempting to hurt and burn the player, while the UFO moves to the side, effectively causing the player to fall off. Melee damage to the cockpit should be far more damaging than ranged, encouraging players to get up close for not only an easier shot but a more damaging one as well.
    Summary of Moveset:
    - Downward blasts while sweeping back and forth (Can break blocks)
    - "Squishing" attack (Can break lots of blocks)
    - Small laser turrets for shooting sideways (lasers akin to the tiny UFOs)
    - Shortrange fire attack while moving sideways to get player off of ship
    - Summoning of penguin army to aid
    - Summoning of tiny UFOs (when health is low)
    - Teleporting when stuck (Health > 50%) or teleporting to ocassionally (1 in 3 chance, or so) avoid attacks (Health <= 50%) [Player standing on UFO about to melee or arrow/bullet incoming]

    #2: Brainy Robot
    Changes to character: Look at those claws!! Why doesn't this thing dig? He should be capable of getting close to the player no matter where they're hiding. That said, he should only move at the player's base speed (slower while digging/slashing), with slightly slower acceleration/turning ability, he should also be capable of dashing (with a small "charge up" time) to close the distance between him and the player without being undodgable. For dealing with players using ranged weapons, he should be capable of developing a small temporary shield around himself when hit by a ranged attack, releasing the shield after a couple seconds as a ranged energy attack of his own, capable of destroying blocks. Due to how dangerous this guy should be, his health needs to be lowered to roughly 3/4 of what it is now.
    Weakpoint: Head, though breaking his arms and legs to disable certain attacks may be considered :D
    Intended assault methods: Both melee and ranged. Melee should do slightly more damage as it's concussive, and because it's pretty stupid to get close to this thing. X3
    Reactions to assault: Dash attack when melee'd, Shield/Energy Shot when hit by range.
    Summary of Moveset:
    - Wild slashing attack while moving forward (can't change direction during attack), effectively digging through any blocks he encounters.
    - Shield used to absorb ranged attacks. Shield becomes ranged energy attack (more powerful if absorbed attacks?)
    - (?) Gravity Bubble to chase players that are above and out of reach

    #3: Undead Dragon
    Changes to character: Intimidation much? That fire, those wings, those piercing eyes! Until you realize he doesn't retaliate if you fly into the sky with him (Maybe he feels a bit of kindred spirit?). This guy was built for the sky, so he should dominate in the sky. For instance, he flies way too slow. A player in a gravity bubble should not be able to outrun him, not by a long shot. That fire breath is devastating and I'd like to see him use it more often. Ravage the land with fire! For this fight, I think he should be keeping the player fairly well contained within an area, effectively blocking a player's escape should they try to make a run for it, blasting fire in front of the direction a player is attempting to run. Sweeping fire from above while flying back and forth at break neck speeds. The natural counter to no escape is to build a bunker, but this guy looks like he weighs a few tons, and not many bunkers would hold up to it if he were to flaunt that and drop out of the sky on top of one.
    Weakpoint: Open mouth (during a fire blast. Cliché, I know, but it makes for an interesting fight)
    Intended assault methods: Range, range, range. Getting in the way of this guy, or close in general, should be suicide (as it often is). Name of the game is to land hits into this guy's open mouth while dodging the ensueing fire.
    Reactions to assault: At half health, dragon will begin attempting to stomp player directly, regardless of whether they're hiding or not.
    Summary of Moveset:
    - Low flying fire sweep. The dragon rockets toward the ground where the player is at, blasting fire in the player's general area (should not be too difficult to dodge if you see it coming), then pulling up and preparing for another pass. (This is one of the main times to counter attack)
    - Accurate fire blast. The dragon hovers in the air in front of the player, shooting small bursts of fire accurately at the player. (Another attack opportunity)
    - Earth shattering stomp. If the player has shelter above their heads, the dragon will swoop down and stomp the wouldbe bunker at lightning speed, in an attempt to destroy it. (Being this isn't a fire attack, it doesn't present an attack opportunity for the player) This should also be used if the player is hiding while escaping, "trumping" the fire wall intercept.
    - Intercepting fire wall. If the player retreats too far from the starting area (where boss was spawned) the dragon will attempt to block the player's escape with a lasting stream of fire.

    Conclusion: I believe a boss battle should be memorable, and on first encounter it should be puzzlingly difficult, though fairly straightforward in execution (not necessarily easy) once the pattern of attacks and method of dealing damage are found.
    The UFO boss was memorable in its own right for me, though a little disappointing once certain aspects became clear. I don't think simply allowing it to break blocks at will should be sufficient to balance out "chessiness". Player creativity should play a vital role in taking down a boss, but I agree it shouldn't be as simple as boxing it or yourself into a corner. Communities will no doubt devise the "easiest" method of defeating a boss, and I don't think the boss should be specifically designed to counter cheesiness if it's not immediately obvious.
    The robot took me by surprise, as I first thought it was supposed to help me in some fashion (maybe mining?). That said, it killed me outright upon summoning, though upon returning it immediately got itself stuck behind a couple blocks and I was able to kill it through the wall with a sword (after much bashing). This boss was only memorable in that I was expecting it to be something other than what it was. The fight itself was hardly memorable.
    I knew the 3rd boss was coming, so I prepared for whatever was going to show up. I didn't expect a massive undead dragon, though. Upon summoning, I was able to dodge a surprise fire blast from above, then another fire blast afterward which hit my house, and I was afraid it'd burn it down, being that it's made of wood.... disappointed that it didn't, but was thankful regardless. In the moment of worrying about my house, I ate a fire blast and died. Returning, I was in the safety of my home, the dragon was meandering around my roof, apparently figuring out how to get a clear shot at me. During this time, he amde no effort to attack and just sat idly by above my ceiling. I tried attacking his foot through the blocks but to no avail... and further attempts landed me an instant death when his foot phased through the wall and hit me. Was happy to see that his damage box was not the same as his hit box, so good job there. Returning at this point, I made a fleeting escape from the house and took to the sky. At this point, the boss was all too easy. He made no effort to attack me and only followed closely behind, as I used a flamethrower to slowly widdle away his health and kill him. Not a memorable fight at all.
    With these experiences in mind, I've come up with the above ideas for how the current bosses could be revamped.

    Feedback / Discussion on the subject is encouraged, but please supply something more than "nerf it" so our dev friends have a better understanding of what we'd like to see. :D
    (I had more voting options for each boss, but I could only have so many options :()
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2013
    Zanebot and ReMark like this.
  2. ReMark

    ReMark Subatomic Cosmonaut

    I like this a lot, and I think a lot of it is really good! :D

    One thing I'd to this, however, is that the dragon's fire does not actually aim at you. It is slightly above the player so that it doesn't hit. I'd fix this quickly! :D

    I thought the UFO boss was really hard at first. Before the patch came out, though, I used cheapy tactics to wall him in, so I like the idea that he should have a weakpoint and be able to teleport if stuck. Might I suggest a "Cooling" timer, so that players have a fair opportunity to climb up on it and attack the Pod/capsule? Most players at the start don't have a Tech yet (I didn't find one for quite some time, not until I hit the X sector), so he should probably either land, or "Get stuck in the ground" when he slams down. (Sorry, trying to think in terms of bosses such as those in LoZ and the like. Perhaps a weapon/item needed to make the fight easier through a "gimmick"? IDK)

    I think the weakpoint of the dragon should be it's spinal chord, or the back instead of the head, given that one hit from the fire would be "Devastating" (from my own experience). Instead, a scenario where the dragon's back is vulnerable after being shot in the head and then having the opportunity to use melee on it's spine would be a much better alternative, I think. It provides a much more fair chance to hit, rather than running up and hoping it doesn't burn you to death! (Ofc, this is my opinion! :D)

    Over all, I really like this post, and it has a lot of thought put into it, and deserves just that much back :D
    Plystire likes this.
  3. Plystire

    Plystire Star Wrangler

    Thanks, I'm glad you liked it. I like the idea of stunning the dragon. Maybe after a few hits (2-3) in the face will stun him, landing him on the ground for a brief moment so the player can attack and deal damage. Having the UFO get stuck in the ground when slamming down might be a cool feature (I can see the pilot penguin raging on his control panel while the ship's smoking :giggle:)

    I just now went back and fought all the bosses again to get a real feeling for what it's like to fight them with gear at that level. The UFO was definitely the most difficult IMO. The dragon would be second most difficult, and the robot just had absurdly large amounts of health (My lvl 41 hammer with 51 attack couldn't even oneshot it, dealing over 1200 damage to it). What I found about the dragon (using Pulse Jump instead of Gravity Bubble) was that he didn't make an effort to really attack the player besides lighting the ground on fire. His fire blast travels a tad too slow and is pretty easy to dodge. I think the hardest part of the Robot battle was that only a select few individuals actually had the armor tiered for this battle.
    ReMark likes this.
  4. ReMark

    ReMark Subatomic Cosmonaut

    Yes, the UFO is definitely the hardest (Afterall, it's the first boss that's ingame, so it makes sense that it was worked on the most!) .

    Yes! Comic relief in the first boss fight would be amazing (Thinking of the alien Hominid boss fight with the RUSSIAN MECH BEAR. Great game, btw.) I think it would add another level to the boss fight, as I found it irritating at first without proper tutorials guiding me through (Of course, I tend to think outside the box, so I got through it okay). Seeing the little dude angry would be funny as well, I think >:3
    I gave it some thought as I watched some Rayman origins, and I thought to myself that the fire could be worked on. Maybe have it spread out as he breaths, sort of in a Cone Effect. The robot was really easy, as all I had to do was build a walk way high enough where he couldn't jump to, and shoot down at him.

    On another note, I am glad you liked my suggestion to your suggestion, and I really look forward to seeing more from you :D
  5. Plystire

    Plystire Star Wrangler

    Hmmm, I think besides moving too slow, the fire was okay. Maybe the fire it creates on the blocks could spread outward a bit more, but I think if it were conical, it'd have to be shorter range for the player to dodge it effectively (further range means wider coverage in a conical spread).

    Speaking of fire. On my second fight with the robot, I found out that it actually had a mini flamethrower! It shoots maybe 6 blocks in front of it and I couldn't help but wonder what the point of it was if he could dash into you at that range. I also noticed that he got himself stuck on the terrain way too easily. Just a 2 block high bump in the road is enough to get him stuck. He'd be much more difficult if he could navigate terrain and counter players using flight/height to leave him helplessly out of range. I can see him being a real force to be reconned with if he were more capable of approaching the player. Speaking of which, he moves at the same speed the player does. Being that most monsters can, I tried what I normally did and attempted to jump and let him pass by, but he immediately met my jump. I've been thinking a lot about the robot, and being as he's so tiny, there isn't much room for weakpoints or "events" like we came up with the UFO or Dragon. I thought maybe using an energy weapon could stun him, but that'd be too easily exploitable. :/
  6. ReMark

    ReMark Subatomic Cosmonaut

    So maybe fix the bump issue? Possible a sort of "Rocket Jump" ability, setting it around 20 blocks into the air (Or enough off screen), and then having it slam down onto you, with a mini-shockwave effect. In a similar fashion, it'd probably get stuck in the ground like the ufo.

    Or, it could become slightly slower, with a dash that gets it stuck inside walls, revealing a back panel? Both seem to similar to the other two events we thought of. :c

    Hm. How about overheating? Most mechanicals overheat at certain points, so maybe have fire-based weapons deal damage and force an overheat (Especially if the flamethrower is used very often!)
    Overheating, instead of being a stun-based event, could be an extra-damage or weaker-armor event, where the robot is susceptible to more damage while he is hot!
    This could also give players an edge on lava-worlds, or lava filled areas! And seeing as how most monsters are immune to firedamage (level 30*+* block it), it would be a very refreshing difference. It'd almost be like pokemon, in a sense.

    I think these ideas are really awesome though, and I hope, if plausible and capable of being put in, they are. It'd add a level to the boss mechanics that'd separate it from Terraria's where you "Ran away and shot" at the boss, which made that game's fighting very stale in single player.
  7. Plystire

    Plystire Star Wrangler

    Hey, there's an idea! Maybe a large energy beam he can fire. Have it horizontal, block breaking, and last for a couple seconds forcing a pulse jump if not Gravity Bubble from the player in order to dodge it. After which, it would shut/slow down, momentarily, steaming from overheating. :up:

    I really wanted to mention "element weakness", but I feel the different elements have their own use already. Electric attacks have some range to them while still being melee, fire weapons burn dealing DoT, and poison well -- it's poison, lol.
  8. ReMark

    ReMark Subatomic Cosmonaut

    Fire isn't really that great late-game, in my opinion. I like the idea of it shutting down, but... I think it'd slow the battle down a lot, and it's essentially the same as the stun with the dragon/ufo.
    Poison is really awesome, as it negates the "Block" on animals. :3

    Perhaps an "over-drive" mode where it becomes around 10% faster, deals 25% more damage, and takes 25% more damage?
    I do like the idea of a laser though! Considering it's supposed to be hi-tech, it should have something of a laser.

    I haven't seen an electric-element weapon yet... :eek: Sounds fascinating, so I am going to have to search for one tomorrow and get back to this thread with more thoughts!
  9. Plystire

    Plystire Star Wrangler

    I think I've found 4 different "elements". The 4th being from a legendary "Nova Slicer" which would emit a large "nova" bubble a short distance in front of the swing. It was really cool, but sadly it was only a level 4. I've kept it all this time, just as a keepsake, since it's the only legendary I've discovered. X3

    Yeah, the shutdown is a lot like the stun, which is why I said "shut/slow" meaning it could slow down a lot instead of being totally immobilized. Stuns on bosses leave a bad taste in my mouth, no matter what game I'm playing. Most of the time it doesn't feel deserving.. like I didn't really cause enough damage to constitute the amount of stun that was given. That's why I suggested the UFO be like a large moving platform the player needed to somehow mount in order to deal significant damage. I mean, what's gonna do more damage to that thing? A giant stone hammer slamming into a glass cockpit, or a caveman's bow and arrow hitting pretty much anywhere on it? :rolleyes:

    You know, thinking about the dragon's fire again... maybe he's aiming at blocks with the intention of lighting as much fire around you as possible. That may explain why he never tried to hit me while I was flying, seeing as there's no blocks for him to aim at.
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2013
  10. ReMark

    ReMark Subatomic Cosmonaut

    I haven't found a legendary weapon... Yet :lod: Although I have seen some modding tutorials, so I might make myself a nice weapon later. :mwahaha:

    I don't know. In games like Zelda, I almost always feel I deserved the moment of beating the tar out of the bosses (Especially twilight princess's Monkey creature thing. :3)
    But I can understand that others don't, so I can see what you mean.

    You might be right. I wonder if that was intentional or not. I'll check it out again later today when I re-fight him.
  11. Deathskull

    Deathskull Phantasmal Quasar

    I think the UFO should speed up dramatically (but gain heavy inertia) when using the downward laser attack, it's obviously intended to be weaved through since the lasers have a very long delay between firing, but you can just dodge it by moving in one direction since the UFO is so slow. I also think the slam attack should involve it stopping for a few seconds, then falling down at a high speed and making a crashing noise when it hits the ground. It feels very weak right now and having it come down almost instantly is ridiculously difficult to dodge by early game boss standards (though I've heard it will be put later in the game once the game is released, so making it easier would probably be a bad thing unless those changes get reverted).

    The robot and dragon feel very unfinished from what I've read, they only have 2 attacks (compared to the penguin who has at least 6 thanks to the different kinds of minions) and are screwed completely by blocks being placed around them. I haven't actually fought them, so they could be more finished feeling than I think, but the lack of attacks definitely doesn't seem like something that will be kept. So I don't think people need to worry about them staying this way.
  12. ReMark

    ReMark Subatomic Cosmonaut

    I've fought both previously the other day for fun, and because the game is so early in beta, it stands to reason only the first boss would really be finished. And yes, you're right, they won't be staying as they are, but as a suggestions, we can post ways the dev's can go about adding things to them.

    On an unrelated edit, what do you think would be cool to see as on of the late game bosses?
  13. GreenHunterz

    GreenHunterz Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    I definitely agree that you should be able to land on top of the UFO without taking damage and being able to ride it while attacking it. I like the idea of lasers or something while someone is on top of the UFO, but I think they should be pretty powerful to balance it out. So if you do more damage by attacking the cockpit with a melee weapon, the boss should do more damage while you are standing on the UFO with lasers and burn. So you take a risk, but the benefits of the extra damage could be worth it.

    The robot boss SERIOUSLY needs work. This was my first time fighting him, but all I did was put up a wall which he couldn't jump over, then mined out a few blocks so I could gain aggro on him and so I could hit him while he stood against my wall hopelessly trying to get to me. I was using a terrible weapon only doing 10 damage, since I never upgraded to anything more than what I found on a level 1 alpha planet, but it seemed like he had a decent amount of health. Probably could use more.

    The robot boss HAS to be able to destroy blocks.
  14. Plystire

    Plystire Star Wrangler

    Agreed. Let's hope when they get down to refining the bosses, they use some of the suggestions here. I actually had to dig the robot boss out of a pit that he got himself stuck in, just so I didn't feel like I was cheesing it...
  15. ChaoticGamer

    ChaoticGamer Master Astronaut

    Ha, they all were ezy, thanks to iron blocks, steel blocks and titanium blocks, square shape, cut the corner and you start shooting with your arrows, guns or either your melee...the crushing effect on cob, dirt wasn't great idea...but yea da bosses r ezy for the truth. the dragon boss scared me until his flame thrower doesn't break titanium blocks that ezy. same with the slime. penguins was the hard one a bit when i started the game, I had to used abandon monkey steel bunker building to have all equal fight out and took me 3 hours kill it, now they made it bit too ezy, so yea...way too ezy...

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