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Buff Enforcer

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by DrPastah, Dec 1, 2014.

  1. DrPastah

    DrPastah Aquatic Astronaut

    I've been playing Enforcer for probably more than 100 times today as I've been playing him non stop. And I've been playing with other players on monsoon, glass, honor, command, sacrifice, origin.
    This made me notice that Enforcer is very gimped compared to other characters.

    For one the stats are TERRIBLE on him, all his stats are under par compared to Miner's, and Miner has 2 skills that makes him invulnerable. I mean like come on, miner has a better survivability skill set and he also has better stats? Enforcer needs a serious buff to his stats to make up for him.

    Two, his animations take TOO LONG. You take 1 second to get shielded and 1 second to get unshielded, it's just horrible. It's bad enough you're slow with the shield but the time it takes to get ready is ridiculous. In fact I stopped using the shield early levels due to the long animations. Also the knockback skill takes way to long to use, you need incredibly good timing for 1 second cast time skill. I mean compared to every other character, he's just so underpowered. It d
    oesn't take other characters like loader or mercenary 1 second to cast total invulnerability. Enforcer only has invulnerability in one direction.

    Three, his knockback is buggy. 1/4 of the time I would knock the guy in front of me to only push him behind me as I'm shielded. This usually leads to my death as I can't do anything if the enemy is behind me while it takes too long to unshield myself.

    Four, he should be able to change his shield's direction if he cannot cast the shield on and off quickly thanks to animations and cooldowns.

    Five, he should be able to instantly cancel his shield or at the very least jump out of it to cancel.

    Overall, everyone I talked to agrees the enforcer is garbage compared to the other characters. Sure he can be good with items BUT THAT'S EVERY CHARACTER. He should at least be able to hold his own in these game types at low level.
    • Zawisza

      Zawisza Astral Cartographer

      This is gold. There's a rule in RoR. If you are complaining about character, item, whatever, you are doing it wrong. But whatever, lets turn all your arguments into ash, shall we?

      1) Sure, comparing ranged to meele is really objective and classify as either bull or crap, pick one. If you want comparison compare Enforcer to Commando. Or any other ranged class. Youll notice, that he have second highest stat progression per lvl in everything but attack speed. Im too lazy to do more specific research, but just glimpsing at his stats show that.

      2) Lrn 2 ply. Srsly, you have problems with timing, try until youll get perfect. You have problem with animation being too long, use skills in advance. Its not some hidden truth gained in Shaolin Monastery, you know? Also, BS on underpowered there. Every of his god damned skills are AoE + Serve and Protect gives him lots of haste and invurnerability, making him probably the olny character who can tank bosses on first lvl and with no items besides HAN-D.

      3) See point 2. Also, there is a topic for bugtracking specifically, report bugs there.

      4) Sure, lets give him also range of FMJ and armor pierce. There is a reason, why this class is slow. Its for this minor thing, called challenge.

      5) See point 4.

      Overall, this is not even reball topic, its "boost my main or ill cry". Jeez. Enforcer isn't easy. Enforcer isn't forgiving. But Enforcer isn't also weak. Hell, apllying learning curve to the equasion he might be able to top HAN-D in power tu survival ratio. All you need to do, is to learn how to utilise this power. Which you didn't, because whatever the reason is. I know, that this require effort, but there are also effortless classes in the game, try them instead. I heard, that Chef is really desirable this patch.
        Lucy Steeper and Lecic like this.
      • aurochmana

        aurochmana Aquatic Astronaut

        Enforcer is like Sniper, in that people don't actually know how to play the class then assume that he's garbage. He is certainly not a top tier pick, and he has faults that are harder to remedy than other classes (the most glaring of which is shield mode's susceptibility to certain mobs and the majority of elite enemies), but he has a lot of things going for him as well. Things like amazing crowd control on his default kit, amazing crowd DPS in shield mode, and if you can abuse map layouts (hint: walls walls walls), positional invulnerability and, therefore, survivability. Besides, it's not like elites are immune to stunning or knockback, and in shield mode he kills things just as fast as Chef does if not faster, albeit at a smaller range. I also don't like comparing Enforcer to other ranged classes in the game, because he's really not. I treat him as a defensive melee class, similar to HAN-D.
        • DrPastah

          DrPastah Aquatic Astronaut

          Guys please I know how to play sniper and she's 50x easier than enforcer.

          Alright Mr Zawisza, since you are so adequate at your amazing arguments then explain this to me. How the hell do you face an overloaded worm on honor,glass,monsoon? I'm talking about at levels 1 and 2. No matter what you do as enforcer you just get obliterated since you cannot outrun the boss and you cannot out manuever him, and you especially can't use your shield against him since electricity/missiles/yellow-mobs/red-mobs bypass your shield.

          One, he actually has the worse stats than most ranged. Oh lets see, engineer? Yep engineer has better stats. Bandit? Yep, bandit has better stats but WAIT! Enforcer has 4 extra starting HP. Hmm what about sniper? Oh, sniper has 1 hp/regen per level higher and 1 HP per level lower. That's right, sniper is practically as tanky as the enforcer!

          Two. Lrn2play? Yeah I did do that and guess what? There's no big return on enforcer because his skill set is unforgiving as hell. Wait did you just mention that he gets haste? Did you even play the character? What are you smoking? Enforcer doesn't have any skills that give speed buffs son.

          Four. Challenge? Are you sure it's not because the character isn't balanced as the other classes? Maybe that's why he's so difficult?

          Enforcer isn't even my main you scrub. And I've learned HAND-D, he's bloody easy compared to Enforcer.

          "This is gold. There's a rule in RoR. If you are complaining about character, item, whatever, you are doing it wrong. But whatever, lets turn all your arguments into ash, shall we?"
          Don't ever be a patronizing condescending cunt to me again kid. You barely refuted my points.
            Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
          • Zawisza

            Zawisza Astral Cartographer

            Oh, so you play with Glass and Honor on monsoon? Okay, ill dig that. Lets assume i wont instantly laugh at this, and say its your deal to play whatever mutators you want (because that part is true). For starters you need to get Overloading Magma, out of boss pool on first stages. Thats about 12% chance of getting him. Then get into account, that no matter what you do, most meele will also get fried, including your beloved miner, if you make just one mistake. We are talking about first level here. So why dont you scream betrayal on short range characters being bad? Because they can outmanuveur the boss. Why? Because they have dodges instead of tanking ability. Hell, overloading anything is dangerous to short range characters, which you should know, but you pulled OMV from your ass just to prove your point. You didnt took into your account, that this boss will one shot you with Glass off and on every character ever. Lets look for a sec on Vagrand. As long as its not a shock variant Enforcer can just turtle up and take it on, no items or lvl, while having both Glass and Honor enabled. Hell, you can even throw there Spite too. Did you take that into account? No, because it didnt proven your point.

            Base health 169, toped by Engineer, health per level 34 toped by nothing, base regen toped 1.1 toped by Sniper and Bandit, regen per lvl 0.2 the weakest aspect, toped by most classes. Oops, i guess, you didnt do your homework after all. What a shocker.

            Because you suck at it, and just whine here instead of trying. This is the best part. The more unforgiving the playstyle is, the bigger return you have if you actually stop being lazy scrub and start to work around the problem. Yup, haste as in attack speed. Never said anything about movement. Again, you didnt do your homework, that'll be F, come tomorrow with your parents.

            Challenge. Not because he is or isn't balanced, but because he have different playstyle. Slower, harder, and more rewarding. Anybody can roll, anybody can run fast via various skills instead of Enforcer, who instead can turtle up against the wall and decimate enemies via his set of faster attack speed and AoE skills. Thats the trick. Move slowly backwards and shoot until everything is gone. I guess it was too hard to get that.

            I figured out that its not your main, most people with Enforcer as a main are rolfing at this topic. And oh, nice argument there, you learned how to HAN-D. Oh my, such learn curve, press z until everything is dead, and v the ones that doesnt died. X sometimes for healing and c for extra attack speed. Wow, that is sooooooo hard. You know? I actually roll back this joke. This is just childish at this point. "I played some other character, and its easy, and enforcer is hard, so ill cry here because i demand my rules and regulations". If you are so bad with enforcer to begin with, why in the name of dickbutt do you even play as one? Really, im bad with sniper, so im not playing him/her. I made one reball topic (reball being the key word), someone gave me ideas about how to play, i tried, was very bad at it, but better to the last time i tried. Being bad at something isnt scrubiness. Being stubborn and throwing buffing topics, and then throwing random swears on guys who bring down such discussions is being a scrub. Sorry, your little Titanic here will sink. But that on the last point.

            So, you ran out of arguments (them being stupid as they are), so you tried to insult me, by what exacly? Calling me names? Calling me a kid? I just, point by point, destroyed your whine here, and you, having to have the last word, just called me a cunt. Thats some smooth moves, Mike Jagger. Maybe, just maybe if you used some reball equasions, did some research and thought on a problem for a bit, this would be a nice reball topic with fresh and cool ideas for revamp. You did not. Instead we have this huge wall of tears against a class you can't play for shit. And your throw random insults at members who calls BS on your words there. Smooth Criminal.

            Okay, then, mistery McScrub, tell me please, and enlighten me. How do you want to reball enforcer to be "more playable"? And i dont want some bullcrap with "just do this or that". I want names of new skills, what they do, numeric values (can be in %), cons and pros, stat reballing, everything. You want to be treaten seriously, do at least that.
            • (USER WAS WARNED FOR THIS POST. Reason: Being a Jerk. Expires: 1 month)
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          • Efekian

            Efekian Tentacle Wrangler

            I'm not going to pretend I'm an Enforcer main, but I'd just like to say that Enforcer's stats are rather meh. I did some math for average stats once when I was bored out of my mind, so I could balance character ideas, and I found the following:
            • Enforcer's base HP is a tiny bit higher than average, but his HP per level is about 1.66 points lower than the average.
            • His HP regen, flat and per level, is average
            • His armor per level is lower than the average of 2.5. (All characters have either 2 or 3 armor per level, and he lands on 2)
            • His movement speed is 1.3, slightly lower than the overall average of 1.35 (All characters have either 1.3 or 1.4)
            • His base damage and damage per level are both slightly lower than average (Not too bad though, considering how strong Riot Shotgun is)
            • His attackspeed is awful; average is 114, he has 69.23. Protect and Serve increases it to 80, but it is still subpar.
            • No bonus stats per level (Only 5 out of 12 characters seem to have these; Acrid, Mercenary and Miner get 2.5% attackspeed per level, Bandit gets 1.5% crit per level, and Acrid gets 33% increased HP regeneration across the board)
            Honestly, if anyone thinks Enforcers kit is fine but he's still weak, you could buff him a good bit by just increasing his stats to higher levels. Increase damage per level from 3 to 3.2, 3.5, or even 4,, increase his HP to at least be closer to tanks like HAN-D and Loader (44 and 42, respectively), increasing armor per level to 3, stuff like that. It would take a lot less time than reworking abilities for the devs, but it would improve his QoL a lot.
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            • Zawisza

              Zawisza Astral Cartographer

              And thats what im talking about. I can work with this, i can think and made valuable arguments here. The whole point of Enforcer having lower stats comparing to other classes is because of Protect and Serve, which not olny gives attack speed but also block every attack dealt up front. But back to the topic here.

              I agree with enforcer's hp per lvl is crap. I totally do, he was meant to be strong at start and then get diminishing with every single level, which is really weird, knowing his playstyle. Still, its the best value out of ranged characters.

              HP regen should in my opinion stay as it is. The averageness here is rebalanced with the Riot Shotgun ultimate pierce and, Shield Slam push and Grenades damage and cc. As long as nothing will sit on your back, this hp regen should suffice.

              Armor is arguable, at least without items. It changes something, but the change itself is quite insignificant in the grand scheme.

              Movement speed being 1.3 is a common value for ranged characters excluding Huntress i believe. So i wouldnt touch it.

              I also would not touch his damage, enforcer is really strong counting the Riot Shotgun pierce, and besides he have crazy modifiers on his skills to begin with.

              Attack speed could get some minor boost, at least to the point where he would get the average 114 while doing Protect and Serve. Its still not much, but better than nothing.

              Bonus stat? Hmmm... Bonus stat is a tricky part, because it can destroy the whole class if done wrong. I can't think of anything right now.

              So to summarise, i would agree with 42 or 44 hp boost and attack speed boost to up 114 with Protect and Serve used. Bonus stat is something debatable at this point, and the rest should, IMO stays at is it. Enforcer isn't weak. Its hard. And underrated for the most part.
                Efekian likes this.
              • DrPastah

                DrPastah Aquatic Astronaut

                I'm not even going to read to what you have to say since you've lost your chance with your first post in this thread. You have the ability to put me in a bad mood and in all ruined the thread with your terrible remarks and attitude. I wish there was an ignore user setting on these forums.
                EDIT: Oh there is one, thank goodness.

                Thank you for your input. What is QoL?
                  Last edited: Dec 2, 2014
                • Dunto

                  Dunto Guest

                  Hey all,

                  Keep it civil. There's no need to be rude or condescending to each other. Please remember to respect your fellow forum members and their opinions.
                  • gufufu

                    gufufu Space Hobo

                    At my old forums, mods encouraged fighitng.
                    WITH THESE KIDS? NO WAY!
                    CRUISIN ON DOWN RAIN STREET
                    ON THE MAGIC RULE BUS

                    this place is gr8
                    • Jackster396

                      Jackster396 Void-Bound Voyager

                      I think if you know how to play him properly he can be devastating, he certainly isn't the easiest character but the level of crowd control he can do is unmatched by any other character in the game! Shield up with your back against the wall and let the shotgun tear through everyone in front of you is really good, besides if you're in shield mode you shouldn't be moving tbh. Hope this helps you with your playstyle
                      • Dargona1018

                        Dargona1018 Existential Complex

                        Although I agree that he takes skill and such, the risk/skill - reward is barely there.
                        With Enforcer in general, a lot is up to RNG. And before Zawisza begins to start throwing shit at me like he practically does to everyone on these forums (you're a very angry person, ya know), I've won Enforcer, on Monsoon, a couple of times, but not before dieing about 30-40 times before I was able to get RNG to be in my favor.

                        His ability speed is incredibly slow for how buggy and circumstantial the Shield Bash and the Shield Stance is.
                        Shield Bash - It seems like if you time it wrong, even with a millisecond wrong, they will go behind you, which is absolute bullshit, and should be a bug.
                        Yes, I understand roguelikes, punishment, all of that, but there needs to be some logic behind character design. It shouldn't easily screw up a run because you pressed a button less than a second too late.

                        Shield Stance - The hitbox that it actually defends against is really small, and AoE's should be blocked if the Origin Point of it (AKA where the Lemurian would regularly hit without AoE) is in front of the shield.
                        Sure, you take no dmg from anything else, but you can't single out the dangerous ones and get them outta the way. You either sit there and take it (gonna usually die), or get outta Shield Stance and try to get outta there (die immediately).

                        I understand how his piercing ability and stunning ranged balances that out, but the thing is, it balances it in the wrong way.
                        The way balance should be is something like: "This is good for this, but sucks at that" "Okay, well we can make something to counter that", and most characters have this.
                        The balance of this character is:
                        "Well, he can be invincible to the non-elite enemies that you only encounter in the first level or two of Rainstorm, so . . LET'S GIVE HIM PIERCING!"
                        "Okay, he's got shit invincibility, so we gotta make him super slow with it . . but . . uuhh . . faster attack speed?"
                        "Hmm, well, he's got invincibility, so . . . let's make the player NEED to use it to survive, and have it be the most worthless character crutch ever, eh?"

                        I personally think that there will be nobody else "complaining" about Enforcer if the Ability Speed was faster, even if it just scaled with either movement speed, attack speed, something like that.
                        The only times that I was able to play Enforcer decently was with Command, stacking movement speed and attack speed since those are the things that are really lacking. You can't really easily just "play" Enforcer like almost every other class. I have not seen a single class that you need to specialize items as much as him (I've just never played Huntress and Han-D, and I play Sniper a shitload, so I'm not one to just quit and whine on forums about how the character is kinda shitty unless they truly are).

                        EDIT: And I enjoyed Enforcer after a little bit, as his abilities aren't that bad, just the execution of them are sub-par compared to the other things in the game.
                        • FirstaLasto

                          FirstaLasto Seal Broken

                          (Sorry to bump an old thread, but I was going to make one about this anyways, so might as well just post in this one.)

                          I think the big thing that the Enforcer needs is to be able to turn around while blocking. Being able to turn around by using Shield Slam while walking backwards would help quite a bit, but the already present cooldown on the move would prevent it from becoming overpowered in any way.

                          I also think the Enforcer should have a higher HP value; in my opinion, it should be among the highest. Base 125 with 42 health per level seems alright (HAN-D would still pass his HP at level 4), although even just being on par with Mercenary would be nice. A front-line tank character seems like it should have a bit more bulk, don't you think? Right now, Enforcer ranks 8/12 on the list of level 20 HP values, right under Engineer, and only surpassing Bandit, Sniper, Commando, and Huntress.

                          The Enforcers damage output is also pretty poor. Of all the characters, he has the lowest damage "most damaging skill", at a mere 250%. The second lowest is the Commandos 360% Suppressive Fire (in-game it says 6x60 while on the select screen it says 480%, so I'm not entirely sure which it is. Second lowest either way), and the average for every characters "most damaging skill" is around 915% or 925% (the median being 600%). Id say buffing Shield Slam to anywhere from 310% to 410% wouldn't be unreasonable. While 310% (and possibly 410%) would still be the lowest, at least it wouldn't be by such a large margin.

                          Anyways, those are the sorts of buffs I think the Enforcer needs. Nothing drastic as far as overhauling, just general stat buffs and the turn around thing.
                            Last edited: Jul 3, 2015
                            Dargona1018 likes this.
                          • Dargona1018

                            Dargona1018 Existential Complex

                            I like the idea of using an ability to change which area the shield is, but at the same time, after you get some attack speed, the knockback from Shield Slam and the stun from the 4th ability should keep them at bay.
                            And also, yes, he either needs to do damage or get more health. As of this point, he has no specialty, whereas Commando is good for proccing (crit, missiles, etc), Merc has a lot of I-Frames, Hunter can kite.
                            Of course, to go for the case of damage, he can usually keep people in front of him, and has no real need for health (other than when they get behind). And that would really help.
                            • FirstaLasto

                              FirstaLasto Seal Broken

                              The main reason that the Enforcer needs a way to turn around is that he stands very little chance against certain enemies (mostly bosses) without it, at least when fighting them alongside other enemies. Orange Elites, Magma Worm, Cremator, and Scavenger are a few examples. Wandering Vagrant seems like it would be hard, but for some reason your shield seems to block it's projectiles even from behind as long as you're standing behind where they were initially shot from.
                              • Dargona1018

                                Dargona1018 Existential Complex

                                At the same time, though, those bosses are a good trouble to many other characters, and magma worm can be a run-ender really early on.
                                With Orange Elites, just shield-bash and stun them, keep them at bay. Not saying that it'll work all of the time, but a lot of the enemies are staggered, and thus leave time to act with your abilities or decide whether to run or not.

                                Also, to be quite honest, if you're using Command, you shouldn't be using your shield for much at or around the Temple. Even without command, unless you got really bad items, you should have enough mobility and hopefully attack speed to be able to deal with most threats without the shield at or around that time. So Enforcer is also a terrible character because one of his abilities become mainly useless.

                                And don't get me wrong from that last post, that was a long time ago. I'd been playing Enforcer a lot, and breezed through Providence on normal, albeit with Command a lot of times, but I still see the issues.
                                • FirstaLasto

                                  FirstaLasto Seal Broken

                                  Pretty much every other character has some way to deal with the Magma Worm, whether it be a defensive skill (such as a dodge skill or temporary invincibility skill), or simply having the mobility to deal with it.

                                  Also, in response to the things about Command, don't you think it makes more sense to balance the characters around no-artifact runs? I've personally beaten the game solo using every character without artifacts, and Enforcer was the one I had the hardest time with. He's based entirely around a single mechanic, except that mechanic is really restrictive. Not using your shield is only plausable if you get mobility items, which you're only guareteed to get with Command.
                                  Providence is pretty easy with him, though, yeah. He has enough precision with his teleporting that you can block most of his attacks pretty easily, unlike the Magma Worm who is off by just enough that it hits you from behind.

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