Chat Congrats? On Brexit.

This is even clearer today as the chancellor of the exchequer announced cuts to public spending, and raising taxes, funny isn't it how we are so much better off financially independent of the E.U, where some Brexiters are now claiming "Of course we were poorer before the E.U but we knew our neighbours, and everyone was the same colour!?" Oh dear, such ignorance, such xenophobic notions, such backward thinking.....

 

Yeah, when i refreshed the page the first tweet was gone. It was funny to see though.

 

sorry if somebody takes that as a necromancery or other magical revieving thing but here's the video what i was searching a bit of a day ago

 

I was just reading your replies and I gotta say, you are so full of shit. Do you really think that the people being imported from the middle east are highly educated? Not only that their culture is so different from Europe's you have them conflicting. Culture differences aren't bad but their not even trying to integrate. (fyi I'll prob not reply to anything since I rarely come here)

 

You're deliberately misunderstanding me. I said not all are poor and uneducated, i did not say that all are highly educated.
And why do immigrants have to 'integrate'? If they obey the law and pay taxes, what makes them different from any other citizen?

 

For me it seems alarming how some people generalize people by their culture, homeland and sometimes for just being an immigrant. Just saying ...

 

Normal citizens don't push Shariah law on everybody else who doesn't want it or doesn't believe in Islam.

But if you get enough immigrants and if they whine loud enough the governments will be like "oh we better do this to shut them up or they'll start getting violent..."

 

That's a massive generalisation. Not all immigrants are muslims, and not all muslims push shariah law on people. Just as not all christians preach "god hates fags".

If the majority of people want a law, and the government passes it, that's called "democracy". But, again, if we can stop the Bible from being the word of law, i think we can stop the Qur'an too.

 

Well, I can't hold back ... Xylia, what you do is called discrimination at its "best".
There's a difference between a religion called Islam and a radical concept called Islamism. Also like there's a difference between people with a registered denomination and fundamentalism. Islam is a religion like Christinaity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc.- with different values but also a religion like every other religion.

I would like to add something to your last sentence, Bonabopn. Democracy is when minority is also be heard. Sometimes (hm, I think or hope it's more like rarely) that's a problem, if a minority like radical racists are heard and seem to be the majority because they scream the loudest. So they stroke fear and some others think they have to submit to be save. Or they only focus on one point of their manifesto and are to ... "lazy" to inform about the full manifesto.

 

So, is that why PEW Polls found that 70-90% of the Muslim Community (depending on which nation) were in favor of establishing Shariah Law, then?

 

PEW Polls don't support generalism as well. As you said it depends on which nation and never trust a study you didn't make at yourself. Maybe some of them didn't know better like some people don't know the manifesto of a party or president they vote for. Or it's the result of fear? No polls allow you to generalize and to discriminate.

 

Depending on nation, they fell between 70% and 90%, a majority no matter what.

And are you going to sit there and say that 70% - 90% of the people who answered in favor of Shariah Law that a large chunk of them did so out of ignorance of the subject? How can you be a Muslim and NOT know what Shariah Law is? That's like claiming to be a Christian and not knowing what the Ten Commandments are.

Fear? PEW Research Polls tend to be anonymous, last I checked. What are they afraid of?

Or, perhaps, maybe you could try to for a second accept the evidence that yes, Muslims in general DO want Shariah Law imposed on the nation in which they are currently living, even if they immigrated, even if the nation they immigrated to isn't predominately Muslim.

And the earlier comment of "Hey if that's what people vote for...." um, I'm sorry, but I don't remember there being a vote to allow that many immigrants in, and people who speak out against it are starting to get fined, jailed, etc in Europe.

Is that "Democracy" for you? Last I checked, Democracy usually comes with at least some form of free speech. At least somewhat. Maybe not USA levels of free speech, but you can usually say you don't like something and NOT get thrown in Jail or fined in a Democracy.

 

That's a funny way of writing "30%". Hang on, i got my maths wrong, give me a sec Eh, the maths is too complicated. But the average is 38.4% amongst those selected countries and 80.3% of those polled were muslims (the rest were just citizens of the country).
http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/04/27/the-divide-over-islam-and-national-laws-in-the-muslim-world/

 

Wanna tell me why they seem to be including Christians in there? Obviously a Christian is gonna say no if they're asked about the Qu'ran. And they didn't even poll Muslims living in Europe or US.

I Think this is a different study than the one I read awhile ago.

 

Even if we assume 100% of the "strictly follow" voters were muslim, that's still a lot less than 70-90%. And these are muslim countries.

 

Like a lot of people are voting for parties they don't really know, yes. Even if the polls or election are anonymous fear can still be a reason for their votes. I think a lot of people are afraid that someone finds out and then they're cooked.
I'm christian and I don't know the Lord's Prayer and I know a lot of christians who don't know the Lord's Prayer too. Not all of them are - like me - only christian on document.

Edit: Oh, you replaced "Prayer's Law" with "Ten Commandments". Okay. I also don't know the Ten Commandments. I knew them because of religion classes in elementary school, but now? Maybe only two and that's common moral.

 

It's because it's easier to be more... harsh, when you view someone as less of a person. demonization of racial groups and cultures get the votes.

religions like christianity or "scientology" still get away with their indoctrination camps and bombing places you can get abortions, among other activities. but you'll never see that referred to as terror, because either the public is on their side, or they have deep pockets.

that's not to say there's a problem with some interpretations of Islam, there are and that's not racist to point out. but I'm not going to generalize every follower because of that. they'll get respect if they earn it, same as any other person.

 

I don't post here much, but I found this to be an interesting topic that you, unfortunately, are frowned upon when exploring in most places just due to the tensions such discussions breed. I tend to get pretty passionate about these things - so do stop me if I end up going on a tangent that might not actually apply to any of the views shared here:

I think what bothers me most about this Brexit business, and the state of the West in general, is this how everything that opposes the currently trending liberal views these days are slandered instantly rebuked as being racist, bigoted, part of some fallacy, sexist, or some such other nonsense. No one argues or debates anymore - It's all just shouting, buzzwords, or calling each other out on pre-scripted fallacies someone else made up. Can't even argue for ourselves anymore. To caught up in identifying as our bias or our political party rather than as individuals.

How nationalism and patriotism have become dirty words. How being proud of your own culture has been convoluted as racism. After you've been assigned one of those social stigmas, worthy of them or not? Well. Good luck having a conversation. At that point you just aren't worth talking to anymore according to your opposition. That's the entire strategy. How data and numbers are largely ignored in favor of feelings - unless those numbers were produced by some advocacy group that has already predetermined the outcome of their data collection with bias rather regard and respect for scientific method. How discussion and dissenting opinions just flat out ignored, or worse, shouted down by accusations bigotry and name calling. How real bigotry and sexism are given a nice comfy spot in plain sight to hide in from all these people crying wolf as they numb us to the weight those words used to carry. At best, you are simply given a negative label and dismissed if your views don't fit the current narrative.

I feel I've been pushed out of my own party- a party that I had always thought stood for free thought, equal rights, and progressive values. In this last decade or so, sadly, we've devolved into some horrific mirror image of the religious right - that is to say, we've become moralists who cast down our self-righteous judgement on one another in a ceaseless social media witchhunt for bigotry rather than actually engaging in a constructive exchange of ideas. Bullying in the name of anti-bullying. Racism as an answer to racism.. The irony, the introspection, is completely lost on those who engage in it. I'm just sick of it. It's invaded our escapism (Comics, video games, movies) as a means to advertise, virtue signal, and serve as a form of body armor against critique.

I'm done defending myself. I'm done having to deflect accusations about my moral fiber (or lack thereof) whenever I happen to disagree. It's a despicable disingenuous form of deflection.

As a gay man I'm frankly, very VERY concerned about Islamic values. Just because something is a religion or spiritual in nature does not shield it from critique. I challenge you to pick up a Quran and read it. An astonishing 87 of the Quran's 114 chapters contain approximately 500 verses that can be described as a militant call to arms towards nonbelievers, speak of our status as second class sub humans/slaves, and/or speak of our place in hell. That's not an isolated line or just a verse here and there that is up to interpretation - If you were to do the math that is a staggering 1 in 12 verses containing a clear message of intolerance. You have the doctrine of abrogation, proclaiming that anything that is written in the first half of the book is rendered void by anything written later in the Quran if the message conflicts. (The second half is typically more violent than the first half) In the world's 18 Islamic nations 13 of them punish apostasy (leaving the religion) with death. 10 punish homosexuality with death. Shariya law is another issue in and of it'self that basically amounts to rampant vigilante justice where the punishment is often far more severe than the crime. If these things were coming out of say - Mein Kampf, we'd be calling it what it is; intolerant hatred. We'd be allowed to talk about it.

Is that a generalization towards all Muslims? No. Those who have Westernized I'm sure gleam what wisdom, morality, and spiritual guidance they can from that book. The truth of the matter, however, is that the religion is in dire need of a reform. The book is flawed. There is A LOT of room for dangerous fundamentalism. Hiding from this, tolerating the intolerant for the sake of tolerance, is not doing us any favors and will not make the problem of extremism and jihad go away. I'm not saying we should discriminate or generalize, I'm not calling for the persecution of anyone.. I'm merely asking that we at least work towards developing a climate where we can at least talk about it without being branded a bigot. No idea, religion or not, should be immune to scrutiny.

Of course the immigration crisis is real there Bonabopn, of course it has caused problems - the poverty, the crime rates, the rampant sexual assault. Think about it. These people, unfortunately and to no fault of their own, have been born into medieval theocracies and are then being imported by the droves into a society they have no frame of reference for comprehending. That is a recipe for chaos. They are not just going to instantly or magically adjust to a modern society with more modern values any more than a Christian serf from the Dark Ages would be able to! I think asking for a vetting process to ensure they have no ties to dangerous organizations is more than fair. Putting systems in place to re-educating them/re-acclimate them towards a modern philosophy is far from intolerant- Uplifting people, empowering them, removing them from a horrible third world existence? That is a gift. That is love. But it takes effort.. It's not just automatic. How anyone can confuse that with hate is beyond me.

 

Just saying to Xylia beacuse i cant quote now for some reason
Even if all the imigrants go to europe and they were 100% muslims the % of people in europe would rise just by 1% (4% is already muslim)
By the way we are now sooo off topic
we are here for brexit talk not for fight of "anti-muslim vs "muslims are ok" communities.. or just Xylia and Bonabopn....

 

RE: @Rudette : Finally someone willing to talk about the Elephant in the Room (the violence in the Qu'ran). It's astonishing how many people don't realize just how much hate is in the Qu'ran. Oh, yes, I know SOME verses also teach peace and acceptance, but it's a minority.

Most of the verses are about who to kill and how to kill them.

It's basically "If the unbelievers refuse to convert, kill them." in a nutshell.

And the last paragraph, is particularly good. I just "love" (sarcasm) it when people think that even insinuating that other people need to change when entering a new environment is being "hateful" or "unaccepting" of people.

When you immigrate to a new country, you need to acclimate yourself to their values, laws, and customs.

NOT the other way around.

If someone wants to immigrate to the US, they need to learn OUR language, OUR customs, OUR cultures, and OUR laws.

We're doing them a favor by allowing them to come here. The least they could do, is put an honest effort into integrating themselves into OUR society.

But instead, we have a President who is preaching left and right that WE are the ones who should change to THEIR liking. Bull. They're coming here, THEY change.

@MrVauxs : The thing is, though, is a large part of Brexit was fueled by the Immigrant Crisis. That's why it is relevant to the topic.