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Polygon: Young developers on Starbound say Chucklefish exploited their free work

Discussion in 'Starbound Discussion' started by Coricus, Sep 3, 2019.

  1. Coricus

    Coricus Subatomic Cosmonaut

    So there's been a lot of things I've been hearing about lately, and I think it's time that we as a community took the time to sit down and look through them.

    https://www.polygon.com/2019/9/2/20...lopers-chucklefish-game-industry-exploitation

    I don't like it, I think a lot of people reasonably wouldn't like it. There's been a couple of official statements on this through various channels so far, but nothing that actually feels like it addresses any of the concerns that I think anyone seeing all this is very much having right now. There have also been multiple pieces of information outside of the article that I think are important to take into account as well.

    https://twitter.com/tobyfox/status/1167069264475566081

    https://twitter.com/Papa_Bray/statu...iframe/2/twitter.min.html#1167642877784018945

    As a TL;DR to all these links, dozens of people who worked on Starbound or were interested in working on Starbound were expected to contribute hundreds of hours of work with no compensation, and those who brought up the topic of compensation were verbally abused in order to force them to no longer discuss it. On top of this, in at least one scenario a closeted trans coworker was forcibly outed as a "joke," and there are a couple of other disturbing work environment allegations as well. Adding to what was in the article, Toby Fox has officially come out as saying that he created an hour of WIP music that was scrapped because he didn't post in the IRC channel for Starbound frequently enough, and @RyuujinZERO has come forward saying they actually were approached to have the Avali race added to Starbound at one point, but only under the condition that they hand over the intellectual property rights of the Avali to Chucklefish (keeping in mind that the Avali have existed since long before Starbound was a twinkle in Tiy's eye) and do the entirety of the work on the Avali race themselves for no pay.

    I've been a pretty avid fan of Starbound for several years now, but it's precisely because I am such a fan of this game that I can't keep quiet about all this in good conscience. The community deserves to know what happened, and with the sheer number of people stepping forward on all levels I'm sure an awful lot has happened. I think both the community as a whole and all the various people hurt along the way of the development of Starbound on at least some level deserve an explanation and more than likely an apology, but I think barring that, everyone here deserves to at least know what's going on.


    To be honest, I made the best effort I could to post this thread in the right place, but I don't know if this is necessarily the right section of the forums for this. So if I posted it in the wrong place feel free to move it. I would, however, presume that this is not actually against the forum rules as written to post. I triple checked them, I don't see any reason why this thread would warrant locking. At least, no reason that's officially on the books. As for any reason that would be off the books, well, I think this forum deserves to have an honest discussion on something that directly pertains to it. And I think shutting down that discussion would say volumes as to how Chucklefish is planning on handling this situation going forward. I can only hope that in the here and now, everyone involved can make the right decision.
     
  2. Daikon Ocelot

    Daikon Ocelot Spaceman Spiff

    Man, these are something the community should know. Everyone here should know. And I don't think the moderators here will close this thread (I mean, they are not one of them).

    What I am going to say is, "no wonder they left."
     
    Shaadaris and theflamingchuthulu like this.
  3. Sparklink

    Sparklink Ketchup Robot

    Honestly I am not one hundred percent sure what to make of this. On one hand there are people who like Chucklefish and Starbound and those who hate it. Getting the whole truth may be more difficult than we realize, because there could be some who will misconstrue the story to make an independent developer look bad to profit off it. Likewise Chucklefish could be giving us half truths, lies, or they could be too cautious to say more in their own defense. In this case I have yet to see any physical evidence supporting the claims that Chucklefish really did exploit or abuse its workers. They all seemed to know that they were interns, but were hoping that they could be hired if they did enough. It is entirely possible that these interns may not be remembering how much they worked, they spent their time thinking that they could be hired later an get payed for their efforts. But, when they were not hired, or quit, they felt like their time was wasted and became angry with Chucklefish. I think that the primary reward of their efforts (this may be what Chucklefish may have intended for them) is that they would have work experience to put on their resumes and they could list somebody at Chucklefish as a contact who could put in a good word for these interns when they are looking for jobs in the gaming industry with other, bigger, developers. I hope that either Chucklefish can provide an explanation for what these interns are alleging; or Chucklefish admits that they did wrong and compensates their workers in a way that satisfies them and restores our faith in Chucklefish.

    One last thing I am going to say is that I hope this is resolved soon. I came to these forums because I liked the game, I liked to build mods, and this Community, in particular, is much better than many other game communities. I enjoyed the time I spent playing Starbound and Wargroove and I am not going to lose faith in Chucklefish so soon. Although as for the modding and the Community I am going to have to retreat until I feel comfortable about this place again. So long Chucklefish forums, may the Community withstand adversity .
     
  4. Daikon Ocelot

    Daikon Ocelot Spaceman Spiff

    Me too. For the time being, I guess we can only wait and let the time reveal the truth. I hope it is not as bad as it was told. Because SB has been part of what I am doing right now, my hobby. Most of my imagination and inspiration in doing it comes mostly from SB.
     
  5. blargsnarf

    blargsnarf Pangalactic Porcupine

    Chucklefish won't say anything about this. I hope they prove me wrong. I enjoyed Starbound, but yeah, as it stands, no Chucklefish game'll be getting my money anymore.

    Just like how a bunch of hard-working artists/etc didn't get money from Chucklefish :).
     
  6. Vrow

    Vrow Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    Careful where you put that hope, especially considering how these very forums used to have a Something Awful Exclusive section, the rather confirmed treatment Chucklefish has now been pretty much confirmed to have when trying to "implement" mods via getting all the intellectual property rights (the Avali mod mentioned in the original post, other mods in other various smaller threads in both forums/subreddit), the way most developers and coders (even the Community Manager) quietly left Chucklefish without an announcement from either party, the fact that the Hiring Post for Starbound isn't even in the Starbound blog, the rather lengthy silent treatment, and quite possibly many, many other smaller things that just add up that I don't remember right at the top of my head.
    That is, if the evidence of these behaviors weren't scrubbed already like some of the... pointier accusations were.

    Also, this entire paragraph is just what I can remember from the top of my head and I wasn't even that involved with the community back then. I was a simple lurker only interested in screenshots and builds and I still heard enough of the constant drama that it stuck with me. I'd imagine what more one would find if they looked hard enough.
     
    Shaadaris likes this.
  7. Daikon Ocelot

    Daikon Ocelot Spaceman Spiff

    I am just trying to be positive. Because no one here really knows what is "exactly" happening.

    Speaking about them planning for implementing race mod in to the vanilla, I don't think it is good idea. I mean just let race mod be race mod. If they want to add a new race, just add their own race made by themselves, and not other people's hardly made race. Don't mess with other people's creation, CF, it's theirs.
     
  8. 777JackOfBlades

    777JackOfBlades Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    This made quite a lot of drama over Reddit but it seem we got a very roundabout answer from Chucklefish, they aren't planning to patch Starbound to properly credit the people who worked on it and we don't know if these kinds of abuse are still happening.

    Tiy was also complaining a few days ago about "reviewbombing" which is total bs because the game engine consume too much ressources and people who can run Terraria may not be able to run starbound at more than 1fps and also their terrible behavior with young dev didn't cast any positive light on their company, and maybe people are tired of being promised thing that never happens (hello xbox starbound).

    Even the creator of the Avali mod and Quicksilver commented on how Chucklefish treated them and to be fair it doesn't really make me want to buy more game made or published by chucklefish.
     
    Vrow likes this.
  9. Catherine Franz

    Catherine Franz Spaceman Spiff

    Guess the miniknog has another name huh..."Chucklefish"...
    So that's why this game is still not optimized...

    I mispelled Bethesdafish again...
     
    STCW262, theflamingchuthulu and Vrow like this.
  10. Vrow

    Vrow Scruffy Nerf-Herder



    Sharing it here since it's relevant to the thread and in case people can't take their time to personally read and comb through the tweets and statements, especially since there's a bit more from a couple of interviews.

    I'll also share a link to a rather lengthy compilation of tweets from the subreddit as well.

    All in all? I'm surprised how far and how long this has been going on, which is incredibly upsetting when I only suspected these problems to be from 2014, not from 2012. Although I'm not sure if we'll be able to even continue to discuss this seeing how the thread or the posts might be... pruned, as this sort of discussion used to be pruned in the past.
     
  11. Yev

    Yev Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    I'm more surprised how easily this whole thing got forgotten.
    Like chucklefish forums '12-'13 were like a warzone. especially after the contract in question got leaked on 4chan of all places.
     
  12. Daikon Ocelot

    Daikon Ocelot Spaceman Spiff

    I am starting to think how greedy Finn Brice is.

    I don't understand, what is so hard in paying your employee, even if they're just a volunteer or contributor? Because it would be "nice" if you just pay them to show how you appreciate their help, and maybe they will then keep helping you in the future. That kind of contribution they give you can't be considered as free, man.
     
    spiraluna and STCW262 like this.
  13. Catherine Franz

    Catherine Franz Spaceman Spiff

    Who knows? Maybe we need to see their side of the story too for "non-bias" thingies...
     
  14. Coricus

    Coricus Subatomic Cosmonaut

    For the record, I'd be open to hearing what Chucklefish actually has to say in response to all this, I just don't have much hope that they're going to come out of this in a good light at this point.

    I mean, I'd be happy if it turned out that this was all a series of misunderstandings, but there's an awful lot of allegations including some from people with their own public images to uphold and the only thing Chucklefish has offered in the meanwhile is some PR speak so generic that you wouldn't even realize that it was meant to be in response to all this if it weren't for the messages it was replying to.

    I'd even be open to forgiving Finn Brice for being guilty of all this if he took the -long- series of steps necessary to compensate for all the problems that have built up, both monetarily and through outreach and legitimate apology to all the people he mistreated along the way. As many things that have happened here that I deeply disapprove of that there are, there have been such vastly more monstrous things committed by other figures in the video game industry that have come to light that I might actually be willing to repairing my opinion of someone who was "only" narcissistic, transphobic, emotionally abusive, verbally abusive, and a massive, massive cheapskate. But between all of the reports involved and the current response that Chucklefish is offering now, it seems highly likely that he will simply opt to avoid addressing the situation altogether and will more than likely continue to behave like this behind the scenes for the forseeable future.

    I prefer answers over immediate disapproval of someone, but when a situation is the PR equivalent of being left on read perhaps some disapproval is called for.

    Mind you, there are certain behaviors that people tend to default to in these situations that are never called for regardless, both on a general moral level and because they only harm the situation. There should be a certain level of dignity in asking for answers and appropriate responses on this situation, inasmuch as we should treat everyone involved like human beings.

    That said, I did come up with the snarkiest sentence in the world during this continued stretch of radio silence from Chucklefish, and while it's probably a bit much and not nearly the zinger I think it is I can at least safely assure that it doesn't reach into the kinds of toxic responses that I'm trying to ward off with the above. So, uh, here goes.

    "Game Freak can't even be bothered to add every Pokemon and even they can cut Toby Fox a check"

    I've set a bottle of antidote in the corner for my viper-strong venom and some sugar cookies on the counter, I hope we hear something other than dismissal from Chucklefish soon.
     
    Armorine1983 and STCW262 like this.
  15. Catherine Franz

    Catherine Franz Spaceman Spiff

    A torch and pitchfork vendor can be a good business too I guess...
     
  16. Perq

    Perq Phantasmal Quasar

    I've said it 5 years ago when Starbound was developed, I'm going to say it again - development process was an absolute mess, with no clear direction. Stupid decisions were made one after another, feedback ignored, unrealistic ideas developed for no good reason.

    People in "higher ups" clearly had no idea what they are doing and honestly I'm not even surprised at those news.
    If there was no free labor, the game would not be finished at all.

    It is a shame that people got so excited about creating stuff that they forgot about common sense.
     
    Vrow likes this.
  17. Shaadaris

    Shaadaris Giant Laser Beams

    Wowie. That second link, I clicked it and read through it, and like "wow, I wrote that?"
    I totally forgot I had gone that in-depth into it. But yeah, with all this coming to light, and us already knowing the development process was an unorganized mess with entire major game mechanics and progression getting changed only a month or two before official release, the loads of stuff that never got implemented, etc.

    It's less like they forgot common sense and more like they were expecting to get SOME kind of recognition or payment for their work, and were also given implied deadlines and implied threats of being fired and the like, which, if I was a new dev trying to get my foot in, I would not want to be fired from my first ever contributing position as that would look terrible for me. So they were basically threatened with unspoken and semi-spoken implications.

    Also, speaking of the mess of a development, here, have an album of images I saved one time because I was so annoyed at how many things the devs backtracked on!
    Just for the fun of it! Note: Fun probably won't be had looking through this.
    https://imgur.com/a/aSax860
    (The images are all out of order because Imgur doesn't let you sort galleries by filename and batch-uploading images puts them all out of order! Great design, Imgur!)
     
    Vrow likes this.
  18. Daikon Ocelot

    Daikon Ocelot Spaceman Spiff

    Hmm... I wish I can see those images. But my country totally block Imgur for some reason I don't know.

    Anyway, speaking in the middle of this mess, do you guys think CF will stand a bit longer if they keep doing this? How about SB? How's its future?

    I personally, don't see anything bright coming out from these (CF's behavior), CF will be another hated game company then, and I don't even heard anything about Xbox they promise, which they say is the reason of the halted SB's development. Such a (huge) dissapointment. And now?! I don't see anything happening in this forums. Christmas? Halloween? New Year? They don't care about this forums. There are literally nothing last year here, and maybe this year too. As one of the new member, I am dissapointed (totally), and I think I can understand what the older members felt.
     
    Vrow likes this.
  19. Catherine Franz

    Catherine Franz Spaceman Spiff

    V P N, V P N, V P N!!
     
  20. Vrow

    Vrow Scruffy Nerf-Herder


    Sharing Jimquisition's take as well, since it's related and Jim is pretty great.

    Given the rather generic standard of a statement, I fully think that Chucklefish will continue to keep doing this and just wait for the whole situation to get back under the carpet, although I wouldn't be surprised if Tiyuri tries to "re-invent" Chucklefish in an attempt to repair its reputation.

    Starbound is as dead as it gets. At the very, very least I think the Xbox port will be pushed forward and then it might never be developed again. At least not until the Newer Shinier Games are out, whose own development cycles are a general mystery as far as I know, or even the other games that Chucklefish are... publishing. Starbound might be remembered more for the mods than anything else from this point on. But if the Xbox port isn't even completed then I wouldn't be surprised either, as depressing as it is, since it sounds completely expected from Chucklefish now.
     
    Shaadaris and Daikon Ocelot like this.

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