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Sniper SmokeScreen, Enforcer Turtling, and more!

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by DJFlare84, Nov 13, 2013.

  1. DJFlare84

    DJFlare84 Spaceman Spiff

    So, just a few character-balance-related suggestions all put together. Note that not all of these suggestions are mine. Some of them were suggested by other people around the forum, and I happen to like them! (I'm just too lazy to link them). I will at least state which ones I thought of myself. And, to be clear, this is not a list of all the suggestions ever made, this is just a list for ME of the suggestions I LIKE and/or made. I'm just very organized, is all.

    DJFlare84 suggested:
    Reduce overall damage output?

    DJFlare84 suggested:
    DOUBLE Power and Cooldown of "Forced Reassembly". (Aesthetic Change)
    DJFlare84 suggested: Change PROVIDENCE BOSS BATTLE. Give Providence an added ability to summon small numbers of additional minions periodically, like Lemurians and Imps. This will make the battle more interesting overall, and give Han-D the ability to obtain the precious healdrones he needs to survive.

    DJFlare84 suggested:
    Have Thermal Harpoons fire in 2 sets of 2 rather than 4 sets of 1. (Quality of Life change.)

    DJFlare84 suggested:
    Add a few more invincibility frames AFTER dash attacks for more escape potential.

    DJFlare84 suggested:
    Default Attack should NOT make character "nudge" forward. (Quality of Life change.)

    Others suggested:
    Make STEADY AIM new default skill. Remove Cooldown. Remove SNIPE. (PRIMARY SUGGESTION)
    DJFlare84 suggested:
    Do Primary, and add FREEZE CRACKER ability. (Details at bottom.)
    Others suggested: Military Training includes dropping a grenade at original location to further slow enemies following you.
    Others suggested: Reload should NOT make sniper stop moving.
    Others suggested: SPOTTER SCAN should allow infinite piercing UP TO SELECTED TARGET, and then diminishing piercing afterward.

    Others suggested:
    Default Attack should NOT make character "nudge" forward.
    DJFlare84 suggested: Default attack becomes a 3-slash combo (like a certain MegaMan character we should all know and love).
    Others suggested: Alternatively, instead of the above, allow Mercenary to run while using Default Attack.

    DJFlare84 suggested: Add to the game! *Nudge-Nudge, Wink-Wink!*

    I'm not saying I don't like the Huntress. In fact, she's UNARGUABLY the best character there is to play. Her ability to use all her skills WHILE RUNNING, coupled with her skills auto-aiming left or right for you make it nearly impossible to die. Normally, I feel like characters with such survival advantages should have some disadvantages in other departments. Not to bring the Huntress down, but rather to make character selection a much tougher choice than "Do I want to play Huntress, or do I want to actually challenge myself?".

    Eh, I know not many people will agree with my suggestion. I just felt like the hammer ought to be more powerful. Such a big windup for such little damage? I mean, I know it cools down fast. But I'd RATHER have a strong attack with a higher cooldown than another weak attack that just has the bonus of bouncing people into the air. I mean, really...

    The only real complaint raised about the Mercenary/Acrid so far is that the default attack causes them to nudge forward a bit, and this can be annoying if you're trying to attack a trapped enemy from a raised platform, or even toe-to-toe when repeated swipes eventually put you behind a standing target.

    As for the Mercenary's 3-slash combo, it's just something I'd find very neat and I think it would feel more natural and make the primary attack more interesting to use. Of course it should be balanced by maybe having a slightly longer rest at the end to make up for the extra hits?

    Someone suggested that the skill "Snipe" is completely redundant because you get the exact same effect by simply not-charging the STEADY-AIM skill, and I agree. I also don't think removing the cooldown on STEADY-AIM would be unbalanced at all. Needing to charge AND stand still to get a more powerful shot is enough of a balancing factor. It was also mentioned that the piercing on even a fully charged shot left a little to be desired, and we'd like to see that improved a bit more.

    Now, the suggestion about Freeze Cracker was made in light of the fact that Sniper has effectively ZERO ability to fight against tightly-packed groups of enemies in tight spaces (a situation for which I have coined the term "
    Jar of Ants"). There are some areas where the Sniper can utilize another platform across the way and simply shoot fish in a barrel, but many areas in the game are NOT like that, leaving the Sniper little choice but to hope he has a USE item that can help him (such as Jar of Souls), or to jump in and out of the crowd spamming SNIPE (which could WORK, but is a terrible idea because it takes forever and time is an issue).

    Freeze Cracker would drop a canister at the Sniper's current position that emits a cloud of freezing fog. Enemies wandering into the fog have a high (if not 100%) chance of becoming frozen solid for a limited time, and the cloud lingers, re-freezing enemies that continue to wander into it.

    ... what? He's my character. I'll vouch for him if I wanna!
      Last edited: Jan 17, 2015
    • Ardent Lobster

      Ardent Lobster Aquatic Astronaut

      Having the Merc able to move on default attack would make him much better to play as. Or at least not slide forward after each slash.
      • Stovepipes

        Stovepipes Void-Bound Voyager

        I agree with nearly all of your suggestions except for the one regarding Miner...he isn't that difficult to obtain as of now, in fact, I'd call him easier to unlock than Huntress, Han-D, Sniper, and Mercenary. But yeah, allowing the Enforcer some more leeway while in his Shield Mode is a good idea and the Sniper smokescreen idea is even better.

        I almost always am in midair while using Mercenary's default attack, so this issue isn't as glaring as Sniper's and Enforcer's. I don't think Mercenary needs much of a buff (he's difficult to use, but can easily deal with bunches of enemies without taking damage if used well), but keeping him from moving while using his default attack on the ground would be nice for dealing with enemies while on ledges.[/quote]
        • DJFlare84

          DJFlare84 Spaceman Spiff

          I feel like Acrid has the same issue, honestly. And as Stovepipe mentioned it's not incredibly character-breaking, but it IS annoying to have to readjust your character's position because his main attack thrusts him forward a bit...
          I'll have to add that to my list.

          I already have the Huntress and the Sniper and still no Miner.

          Beating the game once is easy if you play in Multiplayer (and yes, it counted for me even though I was not the host). Huntress WILL happen eventually. All you have to do is get 15 monster logs.

          My main issue is that you have to get a specific stage to unlock him, and then I heard his area only appears if it's a SPECIFIC VERSION of the Magma Barracks. And even then I heard you need potentially 10 rusty jetpacks OR a proton jetpack to even get to the area in question. Is that not true or is it just not as difficult as it sounds?
          • Stovepipes

            Stovepipes Void-Bound Voyager

            The thing about the jetpacks isn't true, it's just the unlock was bugged upon first release. They patched it and now Miner will be unlocked if you
            kill the boss that's guarding his pod. This unlock is notably similar to Acrid's, and it isn't very difficult to get at all.
            • DJFlare84

              DJFlare84 Spaceman Spiff

              Oh, sweet. Suggestion removed, then!

              Now excuse me while I die like, 14 times trying to get him in SP mode (although that's just because I'm not too good at the game).
              • LazerusKI

                LazerusKI Phantasmal Quasar

                I totally agree with Sniper and Enforcer.
                Had no problems with acrid so far, but i rarely use his melee attack.
                Moving while attacking for the mercenary like Ardent Lobster suggested would be interesting too
                • Stormquake

                  Stormquake Scruffy Nerf-Herder

                  I don't want enforcer to get changed mechanics, I just want his skills to function properly.
                  For example...
                  *Shield bash should always knock to the front and ignore other knockbacks that occur during it. If you shield bash, but another drone or player shoots the enemy, sometimes it glitches out and ends up behind you, which fuckin' sucks.
                  *Protect and Serve should protect behind and on you. It's so annoying when a golem or crab is standing on top of you, and you get hit, but then when they're behind you is when your shield blocks them.
                  *Protect and Serve should protect you from all damage coming from the front. He has a big ass metal shield which probably has some future space padding on the back and grip and you're trying to tell me electricty goes through it and into him? It'd sooner go to the bottom of the shield to try and ground itself before going through him.

                  Other things:
                  The nudging on Acrid/Merc attacks makes sense, they're putting a lot of themselves into the strike. Also, Acrid has poison on hit and Merc can melt things if they actually take a pause and he gets a few strikes off. I think it's fine that they move forward and it actually feels good to hit things with their attacks. You can feel the weight and the power going into it.
                  • DJFlare84

                    DJFlare84 Spaceman Spiff

                    While I agree with a lot of this (... Protect and Serve should protect from behind? What?), this is a thread about balance changes. You should, like, report this in bugs or something (although I'm sure it's already been done).

                    But, yeah. I hate it when I use protect-and-serve and for some reason an enemy still hits me while attacking from the front.

                    I find it odd that they "put a lot of themselves into the strike" and only manage 120%/130% damage. Meanwhile, The Miner hits for 140% and manages not to nudge at ALL...

                    Anyway, I respect your opinion, but it didn't change mine.
                    • Stormquake

                      Stormquake Scruffy Nerf-Herder

                      No, I was saying that protect and Serve protects you from the back sometimes when it shouldn't while it lets things hit you that are on top of you. And those aren't really bugs, they're hitbox errors.
                      • Burby

                        Burby Phantasmal Quasar

                        Honestly, the one suggestion I severely disagree with in this thread (that doesn't seem to have been touched upon that much) is the sniper having a smoke screen. I think it'd make him way too much like the bandit, since he too already is a ranged class with high damage output.
                        • DJFlare84

                          DJFlare84 Spaceman Spiff

                          If you wanna get TECHNICAL about it, that's still not a balance issue.
                          I touched upon the SmokeScreen and reasons for it in-depth in another thread (the exact posts themselves are linked as well).

                          But basically, I was trying to develop a tool that would let the Sniper fight effectively in small, crowded spaces. He has a high damage output, but because he has to stand still (using STEADY AIM) to clear out groups of mobs in a reasonable timeframe, it's absolutely SUICIDAL to jump into an area like that and try to fight. I wanted to give him something unique, because my first thought was to give him an ability that drops bombs nearby or directly below him, or have a homing-missile attack, but that'd make him like the Engi (who has both). So I devised the SmokeScreen ability.

                          Furthermore, I disagree about it making him similar to the Bandit. SmokeScreen is PLENTY different from SmokeBomb, which turns the Bandit invisible for a short period of time and lets him walk around. SmokeScreen would limit the Sniper's actions to the vicinity it was placed in, effectively acting as a shield rather than a buff (Also, SmokeBomb lets the Bandit stun enemies around him when he reappears, so it has unique offensive properties).

                          If you still don't like it, I just thought up an alternative ability: Target Lock.

                          Sniper locks onto a target on the screen. When he shoots, the bullet will hit the selected target (provided there are no obstacles). The skill cools down ONLY after the selected target has been killed. In the meantime, you can hit the skill button again to jump to a different target.
                          • DJFlare84

                            DJFlare84 Spaceman Spiff

                            Update: I have now had the opportunity to play HAN-D and now have one minor suggestion for him. I'm pretty sure most people will disagree, but that's my opinion and I'll stick to it.

                            And as a reminder, people, please click the spoiler at the bottom of the original post. It's not a signature.
                            • Megane

                              Megane Void-Bound Voyager

                              What? WHAT? You want a 800% power Forced Reassembly? Are you kidding me? 800%? It's already CRAZY powerful, it FORCES even BOSSES to be launched into the air and stop attacking you so you can get your bearings, that's insane. The weakest part about Han-d isn't his fourth skill, its his base attack intervals one his spammable punches. With just one item or using Overclock you fix that issue completely. (The attack speed ALSO effects how fast drones fire AND how fast Forced Reassembly executes, making him one of the most versatile characters to play the game with.)

                              As a solid Han-D main, I can say you're really just trying to straight tailor the game to how you want to play it, instead of adapting your skills to the game and the characters within. None of these characters even have any issues. Everyone is solid, you just need to play them differently from one another. It takes a bit to learn each character and their strengths and weaknesses, but once you do all of them can complete the game at every level. Learn to adapt. This is basically a rogue-like. It's adapt or die, always has been always will be. If the game gives you 15 headstompers, gombastomp your way to victory, don't beat your head against the wall trying to do things the character you've selected can't do, or the items you have don't allow. (Like walking into a crowd of enemies without a couple repulsion armors and defensive items, thinking your two leechseeds will save you.)

                              I don't mean to seem harsh here, but your suggestions in particular would really just make this game way easier for no tradeoff. When I started playing the game, I couldn't get past the third teleporter either, but when I sat down and learned the characters I was playing, I ripped through the game on normal and now exclusively play hardcore, there's just no fun in playing a game like this when it's too easy for you. Instead of asking or suggestion how to change things to make it easier, ask yourself "What can I do to improve my skills in game?".
                                Deaconator likes this.
                              • Mewtiger

                                Mewtiger Space Spelunker

                                I'm blowing through the game now with experience, and agree that most of the characters feel pretty decent. I like the game's difficulty where it is, though I would like mutators to be able to increase it further.

                                That being said I could think of some things that would be nice quality-of-life changes for some.

                                Enforcer getting collision detection on Protect and Serve for starters. A slow crawl could be nice or cd reduction on Shield Bash per block or hit dealt/received during PaS. Wicked ring does this anyways.

                                Sniper being able to hold shots and penetrate better on pefect reloads would be cool.

                                Huntress getting the ability to hold down attack commands to cycle in cooldowns would be nice. (Commando has this)

                                Miner's drillpunch push being taken off for 2-3-4 combo fluidity.

                                Being able to move with melee animations would be great. I largely circumvent this by jumping with every swing but this hinders damage benefits from attack speed. Think Rogue Legacy style swings. Acrid, Merc, Miner, and Han-D would love this.

                                Most of these are just suggestions for control fluidity, even Enforcer can crank out the kills with items already in game.
                                  Stovepipes likes this.
                                • DJFlare84

                                  DJFlare84 Spaceman Spiff

                                  Woah woah, chill bra. I think you misunderstood my post. I wasn't suggesting Han-D's Forced Reassembly just be made stronger, I was suggesting it have doubled damage AND cooldown. So it's basically a mere aesthetic change (doing same DOT. Just differently). I wanted it this way because the move felt weird to use. The animation is big and impressive and the hammer looks heavy and makes the screen quake and it just felt confusing to see all that fanciness and only do double the damage of a normal punch, y'know? As it is, Forced Reassembly is just a slightly different version of his normal attack. I suggested this change only to make the skill a bit more different and thus interesting.

                                  Also, I hope you understand that this is a suggestion forum, which invites input of all varieties. Input that is entirely opinionated BY NATURE, and the moment you suggest an opinion is dumb, you are wrong.

                                  And questioning my skill as a player based on a suggestion that you seem to have read incorrectly is a terrible idea. You shouldn't have even brought it up. It had no place here. For the record, Han-D is not difficult to play at all. I never said OR thought that. I tanked the entire game quite "handily" (see what I did there) while playing him. His drone attack is ridiculous kinds of OP, and lets him get away with just facetanking everything thrown at him (not to mention he HAS to facetank everything because he has no viable dodge or block options). I didn't beat the game, but I got all the way to the final stage. I was finally killed by that red Guilded Wurm. It didn't occur to me until the final battle that Han-D would not have access to his drones, but I don't blame that on the game. That was clearly my fault for getting caught up in being GODLY and not thinking ahead.
                                    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
                                    pyromancerLaurentius likes this.
                                  • pyromancerLaurentius

                                    pyromancerLaurentius Scruffy Nerf-Herder

                                    So just to add my two cents to this I think Enforcer should be fully mobile with his shield in use, but he gets knocked back by monsters' attacks. My main issue with the enforcer is that he is only really dangerous with PaS active, otherwise he just plain doesn't have the damage to work effectively. And at later difficulty levels, PaS simply becomes a bad idea due to the autotargeting missiles that enemies suddenly learn to fire.
                                    Everything else I either agree with or don't care about.
                                      Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
                                    • P.Alex

                                      P.Alex Industrial Terraformer

                                      One suggestion I'd have for Sniper: Have Steady Aim charge faster with increased attack speed.
                                      • SPLlT

                                        SPLlT Big Damn Hero

                                        15 second smokescreen with a huge cooldown isn't very good, because then the sniper could just camp there.
                                        Similarly to other characters, the smokescreen should have a short duration (5s) and have a cooldown 3 times that. (15s) Why was this even suggested when Sniper already has backflip anyways? Sniper is fine how he is, just needs some more piercing to handle large amounts of mobs or perhaps a longer backflip distance.
                                        • Stovepipes

                                          Stovepipes Void-Bound Voyager

                                          Sniper is most definitely NOT fine how he is, there have been a myriad of threads all saying that Sniper is currently the weakest class by far due to his glaring inability to even somewhat efficiently deal with large groups.

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