Sniper SmokeScreen, Enforcer Turtling, and more!

Why would you suggest MORE single target damage when the class needs more AOE control?
Sniper already has the highest single-target damage out of all the classes, he doesn't need a 1 hit kill ability for weak mobs.
The reload system should be left alone, right now it's perfect for sniper mobility.

 

he has not realy the highest single target damage if you look at the bandit.
Bandits first ability can deal more single target damage in less time, you just need to smash your keyboard more often.
the only case where Sniper deals more damage is, when you hit your marked target, and thats rarely the case if it isnt the boss.

the idea to hit your target in a crowd of enemies would still be interesting, also the ability to cycle through the enemies.
still, he needs more AOE to fit into the gameplay, not more single target damage

 

Here is my idea on how to improve Sniper class in order to playable pass 15 minute mark.

Easiest fix would be to be able to reload at any time (including mid jump. Maybe have a "perfection" if reloaded in mid jump resetting cool down on Steady Aim) this is not ideal fix but it’s a start in the right direction. (IMO)

Or

Make “Military Training” in to “Tactical Reload”

Back flip a large distance. You cannot be hit while rolling. Reloading and shooting though enemies for 280% damage 7 seconds Cool Down.

Better option (IMO) is to have a skill that enables him swap from Sniper Rifle to Pistol with 8-10 seconds Cool Down once switched back to Sniper Rifle.

Call it Side Arm or something but once switched Sniper gains 3 skills 4th skill is a return to Sniper Rifle and 40 bonus movement speed for 5 seconds

1 Knee Caper: (short range like Enforcers shotgun)

Slows enemy and deal 120% damage. 0 Seconds Cool Down

2 Piercing Rounds: (short range like Enforcers shotgun)

Shoot though enemies for 7x150% damage. 5-8 Seconds Cool Down

3 Change Position:

Current speed doubles for 5 seconds. 15-18 Seconds Cool Down

4 Sniper Rifle:

Draw your sniper rifle.

 

Admittedly this IS better than the way Snipe is right now, but honestly I'd still much rather they just removed Snipe entirely and made STEADY AIM the new default attack. There's really no reason not to.

I DO find it odd that Spotter often selects the enemy with the most HP, which also often happens to be among the slower enemies in a crowd, meaning that if you charge up a shot to fire at it, oftentimes you don't even hit the spotted enemy.

I like the idea of being gauranteed to hit the targetted enemy, but I think that having further skill-button presses cycle through targets would be wierd, because what if you just want to RECALL the Spotter? Sometimes I like to call back the Spotter...

I do agree Spotter probably needs to be a little different, but I also feel like it's a hard skill to balance.

Another person ALSO suggested that backflips allow him to drop a kind of grenade and I like the idea. I think I'll add it to the list. It'd have to be a slightly weak damage, but the main benefit would be creating more space for a STEADY AIM shot

You currently CAN reload while jumping. I do agree that having a perfect reload eliminate the cooldown on STEADY AIM would be nice, but I'd still much rather STEADY AIM be made the new primary attack and just have no cooldown whatsoever.

So basically, Tactical Reload would be like a combination of Backflip and Snipe without expending the shot you've already loaded? I like it, but I think I still prefer dropping a grenade, more.

Sounds too much like a Commando who's fourth skill lets him swap to being the Sniper...

 

While I am relatively against changing anything about sniper, I'll suggest something different that may seem slightly workable without breaking his current play.

What I'm thinking is, give the sniper some form of bonus on kill, which fits with his kill enemies one by one with ridiculous damage flavor; I'm thinking maybe a free perfect reload(or maybe a damage bonus) on getting a kill that doesn't take time would be a slight boost that would give him a slight speed boost. There's probably a better on kill bonus, but at the moment this is the only thing I could think of that fits him well.

One thing I want to note is that I don't want perfect reloads to be central to his play (that is I think giving him more bonuses than just damage, would just make it really annoying).

Working within his unique playstyle, I'm thinking that I don't want him to be a character that just hits all enemies at once with some sort of super piercing (that everyone wants to give him); I'd rather have a style where he builds up stacking damage on kill that is reduced on not getting a kill, putting a heavy emphasis on enemy management and timing shots very well. Eventually he'll build up enough damage that cleanup is just a matter of shooting every enemy once, which would work well. I think something along these lines is the best way to keep his core playstyle unchanged.

 

The only problem I have with these ideas is that they completely ignore what I feel to be the Sniper's one, true weakness: The Jar of Ants. The ideas you suggest don't do anything to help the Sniper in this situation. A situation I believe to be the only flaw he needs remedied.

There are one or two people who don't believe the Jar of Ants is a very big deal that needs to be addressed. I quite staunchly disagree with them, obviously.

 

I'll agree that it is a hard situation to get out of; on the other hand, it is relatively doable to avoid getting into it in the first place. I'd say my suggestion makes cleaning up after spawn control even more viable, which was the point.

On the question of whether or not having to use spawn control makes sniper bad, I have an alternate question for you. Would you call a HAN-D player who uses his drones as soon as he picks them up and then dies because he has no drones a bad HAN-D player? I sincerely hope you answered yes. I'm using the same logic in this situation, if you don't properly use the game to your advantage, then you may not be playing effectively. If a certain play style (letting the jar of ants form) causes problems, then it may not be the character who is at fault but the play style.

 

I feel like if Sniper could aim up and down at a 45 degree angle, or free aim with a cursor, his/her issues would be largely fixed.
While I would like sniper to have a slightly more interesting kit, I don't think he/she needs too much to be effective.

 

Spawn Control is NOT, nor should it EVER be, considered part of a normal checklist of things a player should have to do to beat a game. EVER.

Maybe you forgot, somewhere down the line, but controlling spawns is a CHEAT. It's NEVER intended that you actually USE it to win (not to mention, it isn't even 100% reliable). If you have to resort to using spawn control to win a game, your character (or the level design) has a serious flaw. Anyone who thinks spawn control is 'basic strategy' has no business speaking as if they know what makes a good game. I guarantee it.

Now, to be perfectly clear, winning the game as Sniper is NOT impossible (A Jar of Ants can be handled by getting lucky with spawn control, or taking the even EASIER solution: picking up a good use-item like Jar of Souls or Glowing Meteorite), but the Sniper is the ONLY class where encountering a specific situation can result in a guaranteed loss. By comparison, other classes have an answer for EVERY situation WITHIN THEIR INHERENT SKILLSET. This is not balance. This is not "the player being dumb/unprepared". This is a FLAW. And nobody has impressed anyone by claiming otherwise.

EDIT: I should be clear that I don't think Spawn Control is WRONG. I just think that saying it makes up for the Sniper's flaw is incredibly... dumb. Also, it just plain doesn't WORK sometimes, so there's that, too...

Would definitely help him in most cases, but there are a few situations where the Jar of Ants sits at the top or bottom of a rope.

 

First the sniper should have Steady Aim as his first skill with no cooldown, as for the second skill here are some replacement suggestions:

in advance, all the numbers are made-up and are probably not balanced.

Serrated Knife: The sniper deals 200% damage in a small area in-front of him, crippling the foes and slowing them 20% for 5 seconds. 3 second cooldown.
Why: this would give the sniper some much needed AoE, as well as comboing really well with the rest of his kit (Serrated Knife --> Military Training --> Steady Aim + Spotter). Could instead give it more damage or a bleed effect instead of the slow. This skill also makes sense in the context of a sniper, because when an enemy gets close range do you really think snipers would use their sniper rifle? Or would they pull out a sidearm/knife?

AP Ammunition: Loads sniper rifle with special ammunition, causes the next shot fired by Steady Aim to deal an additional 200% damage, this damage has full piercing. 5 second cooldown.
Why: I think that giving Steady Aim more piercing is a bad idea, as it does far too much damage. That is why I came up with this idea, have a number that isn't related to how long you charge your Steady Aim but instead uses it as a medium to do some AoE. I don't quite like it as much as the previous suggestion because it still leaves Steady Aim as the Sniper's only damage option, but I still think it would be a step in the right direction.

C4 Explosives: Drops a C4 packet at your location, press the button again to detonate for 300% damage in a massive AoE. 10second cooldown.
Why: probably my most boring suggestion, however it could be made more interesting by giving it friendly fire (only to you of course), that way you would need to use Military Training to escape.

 

Those actually sound like good ideas. Perhaps have serrated knife useable without canceling steady aim?
I feel like that might be overpowered a bit, but it still makes sense in combat.

 

Not a big fan of the other two, but I like that Serrated Knife suggestion. I think I'll add it.

 

Tell me where you heard this. Cite a source from the developers. Or stop claiming that you speak for the devs (or prove that you do). I'll be honest and say I don't read all of the forums, so if they said this I'd be more willing to agree with you. I'll agree that spawn control is a non-obvious strategy, but I'd say that it fits well with sniper's kit since he is suited to dealing with enemies in large open spaces and by allowing spawns to occur there is an effective way to deal with enemies. If you are saying it isn't intended to fight enemies in wide open spaces, then I'd only assume that the intent of the developers is to fight directly in the "jar of ants" as you call it. If that were true, I'd be shocked. Besides, to have unlocked sniper, the player has to have beaten the game once, so we can't expect them to be unable to learn the game.

Ignoring this obviously vitriolic part of my post, let me get back to my original suggestion. The main feature was a bonus of some sort on kill. I suggested damage since it avoided giving him aoe, but gave him the ability to clear large crowds of enemies anyway. If you think that aoe damage is necessary instead, then give his bullets stacking aoe on kill. It might turn ridiculous, but it might solve his problem.

 

First, let me just say that I agree that controlling spawns is a helpful strategy. The only thing I disagree with is your assertion that being able to do so immediately excuses the Sniper's flaw of being unable to fight in a Jar of Ants. Most importantly because, as I've mentioned before, SPAWN CONTROL IS NOT A RELIABLE STRATEGY.

As to why I "think" Spawn Control is not intended in the game? Look at literally EVERY OTHER CHARACTER. They have no problems fighting in a Jar of Ants, because they all have skills available to them that allow them to function in one without immediately putting themselves in suicidal danger.

The Sniper is the ONLY character where Spawn Control becomes a "necessary" tactic. If only ONE character out of ten requires you to try manipulating the way enemies APPEAR (read that sentence out loud. Maybe you'll understand), doesn't that seem like maybe it isn't meant to be a valid strategy at all?

No developer wants you to cheat your way through the game by having enemies SPAWN on YOUR terms. They want you to fight through challenges the way they set them up, in areas they devised specifically to give you a hard time. There are lots of small ledges and pits specifically to "catch" monsters and force you to fight in them. The very design of the game allows for a multitude of "Jar of Ants" situations and that alone is proof enough that nobody wants you 'controlling' spawns to avoid them.

I mean, if you want me to go grab a dev and have him tell you TO YOUR FACE "No, we did not intend Spawn Control to be a required strategy to beat the game", then of course you're out of your goddamn mind unless I get lucky and one of them happens to be reading. What're the odds of that, really?

And if you think what I say about spawn control is "speaking for the devs", who are YOU to talk? You think Spawn Control IS an intended strategy? Isn't that ALSO "speaking for the devs"?

If you want to get into who's being high and mighty we're BOTH guilty, technically. So I wouldn't try pulling that "don't think you can speak for the devs" bullcrap in an argument like this.

The reason Sniper can't survive in a Jar of Ants isn't because of a lack of AOE. It's a lack of safety. Completely. Giving him more AOE just means he dishes out a little more hurt before dying.

Honestly, I agree that I'd like to see the Sniper have more AOE, but I'd prefer he have better survival first.

 

For the first part, I'd say that each stage has a significantly wide enough area (which is pretty clear of possible spawns for enemies in tight spaces) that the sniper can run and fight there, so I'd say that most issues with consistency are due to lack of player skill. I could go through each stage and point out where he can do this, but I don't think we need to. If you want to say that fliers are the reason why this doesn't work, then I'd point out that many sniper kits make you able to kill them very easily (and drones are very common).

As for the second part of the post, I want to know how sniper is that much less safe than any other character. Few characters have much more than a dodge and if the sniper were given easy access to aoe then the argument that his lack of aoe is his issue would be gone.

 

I agree that most stages (if not all) have a nice, wide area to fight in. Even the worst one, the arctic stage, has TWO huuuuge freerun areas at the top and bottom.

But ending up with monsters on the short ledges on the mountainside is not a result of lack of player skill or planning. Sometimes gate placement just forces you to pass by them (and treasure hunting). And you just end up with enemies on the short ledges creating Jars of Ants. That's just luck, not a lack of player skill. You might notice that Luck is practically the central theme of this game, so that shouldn't surprise you.

Naw, I have no trouble with fliers.

The reason Sniper is unsafe is because his gameplay revolves around him being able to put distance between him and his enemies.

People complain that Backflip is clunky because it doesn't go forward, but that's the POINT of BackFlip, getting AWAY from your enemies so that you can shoot them safely. Sniper HAS to put distance between himself and his target, BECAUSE HE HAS TO SIT STILL TO FIRE AND DO ANY DECENT DAMAGE.

Not to mention he has to reload, which makes him easily the slowest-rate-firing class in the game. And this isn't even talking about STEADY AIM.

STEADY AIM requires you to sit still, making you COMPLETELY VULNERABLE. If you have NO DISTANCE BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR ENEMIES (like, oh, say, in a Jar of Ants), then those are seconds ticking away that enemies are smacking you down to 25% health and beyond. Steady Aim just can't be used safely in a Jar of Ants, and this is bad because it's the only attack Sniper has to deal with crowds.

 

So why are you staying next to the gate? It is true that jumping off the cliff will slow down your run considerably, but it shouldn't make the biggest difference. In terms of loot hunting, you should still have access to about 1/2 the stage which is at the worst maybe 1/4 of the treasure on the stage, which is hopefully enough. If not and the run is going south, then taking the risk to go get treasure may be necessary.

As for his safety I think that if stacking aoe (and free reload) on kills were added, he wouldn't have to rely on steady aim to clear crowds and would end up about as safe as commando, since his rate of fire would be relatively similar. Even if this isn't added, if you master the ability to reload and shoot in mid air (it wouldn't surprise me if you have) his rate of fire may still be low, but his standing still is mostly solved.

Regardless of this whole argument. Not all characters are meant to be played only solo (though I think sniper is capable in solo) and even if it is the dev's goal to have singleplayer come first, it shouldn't mean that one character that is considerably easier to play in mp shouldn't exist.

 

I stay next to the gate? When did I say that?

I should be clear, I have no problem with any other aspects of Sniper gamplay, because it sounds like you think I have trouble playing the Sniper ALL-AROUND (hint: I don't). If it isn't a Jar of Ants, I can kill it just fine. Fliers? No problem. Large crowds? Bring 'em on. Jar of Ants? Fuck me, where's the Glowing Meteorite!?

I never ever EVER EVER said Sniper shouldn't exist just because he handles better in MP than he does in SP. He's my goddamn favorite class. I just want him to have more survival in a fucking Jar of Ants because they DO pop up.

 

I think that was more of an error on his part, I think it's better worded as an exploit, as while it's perfectly within the game's code, I doubt it was intended for you to avoid certain parts of the map as certain characters to avoid enemies spawning in dangerous locations.
Seriously do you think the Devs would want you to ignore part of there level design? What if a chest spawns there and the teleporter is on the other side of the map (because I don't want to waste the minute I have until everything goes horribly wrong for head stompers or a lantern when I have a nematocyst nozzle)? Really, I think it's better that the sniper be fixed than everyone who wants to not be incredibly RNG-reliant avoid half the map when they play as sniper. Which is then completely invalidated when one plays multiplayer unless you're BOTH snipers and know to do this. Make sense?

 

If nothing else, allow reactivation of Steady Aim to activate Reload, instead of having to push Z every time. (Sniper QoL suggestion)

Oh, and letting the Huntress use her other attacks while holding Z would be nice, since she is the only character where that comes up (perhaps the only character that can't? I know Commando can, but do any of the other characters even need to?). Also, her inability to grab ropes while holding Z (probably because it attacks too often) can be annoying - this killed me once, and it was only the next time that I played that I realized why I had been unable to climb: I am too used to holding down Z on her at all times, since there is literally no drawback combat-wise.