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So I Just Beat Starbound...Now What?

Discussion in 'Starbound Discussion' started by mpclancy12, Aug 8, 2016.

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  1. SeaJay

    SeaJay Space Kumquat

    I also have to say that 1.0 has been disappointing. I quite like a lot of the new things (especially the combat tweaks), and I get that I already have hundreds of hours in the game, but 1.0 could have been so much more.

    People always seem to trot out the same excuse for it, namely "it's only <version>, wait for updates". It used to be "It's only beta, wait until the full release!", now it's "It's only 1.0, wait until the content updates come in!". How long is that going to go for, I wonder?

    Oh, and "Just use <mod> to fix it" - that's a fun one too. The fact that a mod exists only reinforces the bad design of the base game.

    Besides, it's not entirely a problem of unfinished content, it's also about cut content and bad design decisions.

    How long have people been asking for a fix to the lag when changing to a slow weapon before you can actually use it? Years? And it's still not fixed!

    Why doesn't food stack any more? I used to be able to eat food off of my hotbar because I could hold a stack of it, now I have to open up my inventory and change to a tab to do it. Clearly a regression in design there. Is it to support the new mechanic where food goes rotten? That's inconveniencing the player in order to inconvenience them even more. Thanks for that. Who asked for this change? Does anyone actually like it?

    Even if I could stack food, I probably wouldn't be able to fit it, because they shrunk the hotbar to 6 slots, for... no reason? I can't think of any reason to have a smaller hotbar. Yes, the slots are doubled up into two hands, but so many things are two-handed that it doesn't matter that much, and the old hotbar had something like alt-[number] for dual-wielding, which worked quite well.

    What happened to all the fun/slightly overpowered techs? Why can't I dash into a jump? Why can't I double jump while sprinting? Why is sprinting even a tech?

    How is there still no good way to negate fall damage endgame, besides some gimmicky thing like double jumping before hitting the ground?

    It's like the devs don't even play their own game. We're years into dev and into full release, and it still doesn't feel like a "finished" experience.
     
  2. Xylia

    Xylia Tiy's Beard

    The whole point of 1.0 was to get the engine and main storyline finished, which is exactly what they did.

    What remains now, is to add more content, and most of this involves spriting, JSONs, and a few LUAs here and there, which is to say, not very long at all for a dedicated team of developers to do.

    That is, once we're out of the initial bugfix phase. What was sucking up the most time, was the Engine itself, which should be mostly complete now.

    Remember: They built the Engine from scratch. That takes time. A LOT of time. And it went through several revisions as they had to add stuff, re-code it to optimize it, etc.

    This is just so full of LOL.

    No, the presence of mods does NOT "reinforce" the idea the game is bad. The presence of mods means that there are people who love the game, and said people have their own ideas of what the game should have in it, and it gives YOU, the player, a CHOICE as to what content you have in the game.

    Cut content happens in nearly every game. A developer decides "you know, this doesn't really fit the game too well..." or "this isn't balanced, or isn't necessary..." etc.

    As for "Bad game design decisions", that's YOUR opinion.

    Most of these (the hotbar excluded.....) can be changed with mods. This is why mods are a thing. Player A might think pixel loss upon death is awesome. Player B might absolutely loathe it. Well, hey. There's a mod for that. That way Player A can be happy, and so can Player B.

    That's a game balance thing, and it is 100% INTENTIONAL.

    If it was not, there's nothing stopping you from using a slow weapon, swapping to something else, then swapping back to the slow weapon to circumvent its cooldown. That's why it is there in the first place.

    The entire Survival crowd, actually.

    I don't understand the love of the hunger meter myself, I always thought it was stupid, but hey. Players like it.

    If YOU don't like it, again, there's mods to change that. There's no foot rot, there's stackable food, AND there's No Hunger for Survival mods. There ya go. Have fun. That, or you know, just play Casual instead of Survival unless you really really love dropping items on death lol.

    See, this is the beauty of mods. YOU don't like rot/non-stacking food... but others do. Therefore, you can tweak the game to your liking.

    The original hotbar was confusing, and very few players understood how it REALLY worked. Now, they Could have made a tutorial to teach the players how to use it, but they chose to make a new hotbar instead. The new hotbar is OK, it's just they need more than 6 buttons displayed at any given time. Trust me, we've given them mountains of feedback about the hotbar and they've promised to take a look into it.

    Game balance reasons.

    Probably because they want you to be aware of what you're doing? What good is a mechanic if you can negate it altogether passively, unless it is used for gating (such as the EPPs)?

    And, yanno, mods.... Frackin'Universe for one, has a suit of armor whose boots negate fall damage, and Frackin'Races that you can use to accompany FU gives a couple different races the ability to slow-fall and take less fall damage.

    The game is only 1.0.5, and it hasn't even been one month out of the gate. If you hadn't played it for "hundreds of hours" previously, I'm sure it would feel more "complete" to you.
     
    Iris Blanche likes this.
  3. SeaJay

    SeaJay Space Kumquat

    This is going to be very stream-of-consciousness so apologies in advance for rambling.

    Yes, I know. The whole point of my post is that I'm not happy with how it turned out overall. Just because an engine and storyline exists doesn't mean I can't criticise the game in its current state, especially since this is the version the devs considered worthy of a full release.

    Since you mentioned the storyline, that was pretty mediocre as well. The story itself was not very novel or engaging. The missions and characters themselves were very solid (and ought to be praised), but the bosses were often lacking and often rehashed. The scanning mechanic as an excuse to tie the missions together was lazy/poor, a very ham-fisted incentive to explore.

    The core engine is fine. Runs alright on my (admittedly pretty good) hardware, anyway. Not many tangible changes to the engine in the last ~2 years, but if it isn't broken don't fix it. Server architecture is not great, but that's a hard problem to solve, so I won't give them too much flak about it.

    Content mods and "preference mods" are one thing, but it's a major red flag when so many mods exist solely to address perceived design problems in the game. If something in a game is really well implemented, it's unlikely that mods will exist to mess with it (rather than merely adding to it).

    Dark Souls' three most popular mods (DSFix, DSCM and DSSE) exist to address its three most central flaws - its rendering, its matchmaking, and (lack of) anti-cheat. If I need to install these kinds of mods then it doesn't reflect well on the game. I love Dark Souls, but I will talk about how bad the PC port is for hours if you'll let me. A similar kind of thing applies to Starbound.

    Terraria doesn't have as many of these "fix mods" because it's a mature game and devs have already ironed out most of the kinks. Starbound isn't as mature as Terraria and you gotta point out the kinks that need ironing.


    "It happens" isn't a defense. I happened to like that content, am I not allowed to voice my opinion when stuff I like is removed?

    And yes, it is my opinion. I mean, I give lots of examples of things I perceive to be bad design decisions, so it's not like my opinion isn't supported.


    How condescending of you to assume I hadn't considered this. There's an easy fix - only introduce the lag on a double switch within an allotted timeframe. There's no reason to lag on a single switch. The most a player can do in this case is occasionally get a little more burst damage; long-term DPS can't be exploited. This comes up pretty much every time it's discussed.

    While we're on the topic of cooldown balance issues, the alt attack on some weapons (eg. sniper piercing shot) chains near-instantly with the primary, effectively increasing DPS by a factor of two or more. It also increases stamina usage, but who cares when you can now one- or two-shot nearly everything? I stomped the entire game as soon as I got the Antique Scoped Rifle, up to and including the final boss.

    Um, no? Bringing back hunger was popular. I like hunger as it gives incentive to farm, but I can understand wanting to opt out of it. I didn't hear "the entire survival crowd" clamoring for non-stackable food that spoils. Maybe I missed the memo.

    The food-not-stacking thing is not even opinion-based, it is objectively less convenient to eat now. I used to have to hit a single hotkey and click to eat, now I have to open the inventory, browse to the food tab, pick up the food and eat it. That's a lot more effort and visual clutter to perform the same action. It's simply not as good as it used to be.

    Not that I would have space for food on a 6-slot hotbar anyway, grumble grumble.

    I still want temperature back, btw. Its implementation was never perfect (building a bunch of campfires on the moon comes to mind...), but I think it had potential.

    Was it really that bad? IIRC it was just holding a hotkey to wield in the offhand, that was pretty much it. I guess you need to cater to your whole audience, but at the same time you shouldn't piss off your veteran audience. If you're going to take something away you should replace it with something of at least arguably equal value.

    I agree, the hotbar would be great if it just had more slots (indeed, better than the original, especially when combined with giving the MM tools dedicated slots). Still, an embarrassing regression in design and I will happily criticize them for it until it's fixed. Having a bar with 10 slots would not have been hard to do at all. This should have come up in playtesting, surely?



    You can balance the old techs around tech card cost and stamina usage (ie. how every other tech is balanced), but they just cut them entirely and replaced them with brand new not-as-interesting techs, which was... well, definitely not lazy, but not very good either.

    Inability to chain stuff together is just an oversight, not an intentional balance decision.

    Sprinting not being a tech would not affect game balance in the slightest.


    Terraria clearly doesn't suffer from this problem, you can negate fall damage midgame using the Horseshoe, and later using wings/hoverboard. I can negate mechanics like drowning in water and sand, why not fall damage?

    Sometimes negating a mechanic can increase depth, you know. I can't really use any other jump tech besides the quad jump, since it's far and away the best at negating fall damage - there's no reason to choose anything else. If I could negate it passively that makes the other jump techs more viable.

    And yeah, again with the mods thing.

    How predictable can you be?

    Perhaps, but I'd be wrong, wouldn't I? A veteran player has a better idea of how release compares to past builds.

    I admit that having hundreds of hours in the game would make me enjoy it less due to burnout. It wouldn't impact my ability to judge its finishedness.
     
  4. Xylia

    Xylia Tiy's Beard

    You're talking to the King of Ramble, lol.

    Criticism is OK, but there's a place and a time where criticism goes from being criticism to unfair judgment against things that could not be helped and/or things that were expected.

    I thought some of the bosses were awesome. Asra Nox behaves like nothing else in the game, the Kluex Statue uses plenty of attacks that nobody else does, and Big Ape, I thought was rather cool. So, yeah, the bone dragon was meh, but mainly because they just wanted to bring that back for nostalgia sake.

    Uh, you kidding me? The engine has been through a TON of changes. I was getting 30-45 FPS on half zoom at 1360x768 full screen resolution during Glad Giraffe.

    Now, in 1.0, I run Windowed (which takes up MORE processing power) on max zoom OUT (more processing power required) and I get a solid 60 FPS everywhere except the Outpost (40-45 there).

    They literally re-did a huge part of the engine between Glad Giraffe and 1.0. Just because YOU don't notice any differences on the user end, doesn't mean they didn't make a ton of re-writes and optimization passes on their end. Trust me, they changed a LOT of junk. Ask any modder how much they changed JSON and LUA file structure.

    Try to load up any Glad Giraffe mod in 1.0 and it won't even make it to the Title Screen.

    And how many of these actually exist for Starbound? And again, "Design Problems" a lot of time are a matter of opinion. Food Rot, Food Stacking, etc are opinion. Some people like the added difficulty. I don't, and it sounds like you don't, but others do. Again, opinion.

    Those 3 things you list are obvious design flaws, yes. But yet, does Starbound have any kind of design flaws like these? Last I checked, the main core systems work, and work pretty well. They do exactly what they were designed to do.

    Terraria doesn't have very many mods, because Terraria is a PITA to mod in the first place. You need an API hook to even mod the game. Terraria is NOT designed to be modded, but they managed to jury-rig a solution to get mods to work, same with Stardew Valley. Neither of these games were designed to be moddable, but people wanna mod, so they'll do stuff like APIs to make it happen.

    Starbound, on the other hand, was designed around modding from the ground-up.

    Could always mod it back in if you like it so much. *shrugs* Just be happy that's a possibility.

    I never said there's anything wrong with having an opinion, but it is just that -- an opinion. Don't state it like it is fact, nor should you state it like the majority of the playerbase agrees with you.

    You didn't mention anything that you had any idea that was the reason they did it, so I could only assume that you didn't know. *shrugs* Not meant to be condescending at all.

    And your "easy fix".... how do you know it is such an easy fix? Do you have access to the source code? Maybe the engine doesn't support your fix? Maybe it would introduce extra lag? Who knows. You're not privy to the source code, and you don't know how exactly the engine is coded. You, nor me, nor anybody other than the developers have the right to sit here and go "that's an easy fix..." .... I'm sure if it was so easy, they would have just done that. Or do you think the programmers were too stupid to have reasoned that out?

    Don't count on such things existing forever -- usually after a 1.0 release, the developers will go through a bugfix phase... and once the critical bugfixes are done, then comes the balance passes. I wouldn't be surprised if that gets fixed rather quickly.

    I've seen complaints in the forums, and a lot of people told the complainers to suck it up or go to Casual. Sounds to me like the true survivalists think the change makes sense.

    Maybe that was the developers' INTENTION? They meant to make it less convenient. What good is a mechanic that is easily circumvented within the first 30 minutes of gameplay? Without rot and being able to stack to your heart's desire, nothing stops you from carrying around 99 Cooked Meats and being set for the rest of the game. Why even have hunger, then?

    Because hitting I, clicking the food tab, and grabbing a food and clicking outside the window is such hard work...........

    lol... really? Standing near torches every 30-45 seconds was oh so much fun. Weren't you just whining about having to manually eat food from the inventory tab a sec ago?

    Many VETERANS, myself included, wasn't even aware of half of the hotbar's real functionality. Only after the hotbar thread, I was like "OH, I didn't know it worked like that..." because, yanno, nothing in the game SAYS that.

    Dozens of people made mockups and suggestions of a 12-slot hotbar that's just like the one we have, only 12 slots. So we'll see.

    Maybe they thought infinite flight and no fall damage at all was a bit too OP?

    How do you know? Did you ask the devs and get a response?

    They obviously think so, otherwise they would have given us a sprint key instead of having it as a tech.


    Terraria is a whole different game, centered on movement and combat. Starbound's focus isn't on combat, but rather exploration and building with a dash of combat on the side.

    Or, you know, use ropes and grappling hooks and watch where you're going.....
     
  5. SeaJay

    SeaJay Space Kumquat

    It always ran just fine for me at 1080p/60fps on min zoom, since I run good hardware. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    People still complain that the game lags too much for what it is, so idk.


    No, not crippling flaws like DS1 has, but that wasn't the point.


    Admittedly true. Regardless, when I play a mature game like Terraria there's very few times when I go "wow, that seems like an oversight, I wish that would be different", or "huh, this was actually better before, what happened?". Seems to happen quite a lot in Starbound.

    Nice speculation there, but I haven't heard anything from CF about this being a difficult fix (and if it is a difficult fix, whose fault is that?). Regardless of whether or not it's difficult to fix, that doesn't mean I have to like it.

    Any software engineer would know that this ought to be an easy fix. I mean, come on. Tracking time between weapon switches is too difficult?

    "Suck it up or go to Casual", huh? Brilliant argument if I've ever heard one.

    Hunger isn't actually more difficult to circumvent now, that's a different discussion. I'm still more in danger in drowning under all the food that a modest-size farm still generates. The only thing that's changed for me when it comes to the hunger mechanic is now I open my inventory to eat, rather than eat it off my hotbar. I don't hate the rot mechanic, but food doesn't rot quickly enough for me to really care.

    Just give me a "quick eat" button or something that eats the most-filling food in my inventory (to avoid eating raw ingredients). Then you can have your precious rot mechanic, and save me a hotbar slot, without making the game less ergonomic. Everyone's happy.

    I mean, it kind of is, especially when it's unnecessary. It's not the end of the world, but they've needlessly made something worse. There's something to be said for a seamless experience and this is a seam.

    Well, yeah, it was poorly implemented, I said as much myself, didn't I?

    Having a temperature mechanic doesn't have to mean "standing near torches". Between clothing warmth, fire, warming food, shelter, biomes and weather conditions, temperature could have been a pretty cool mechanic. Now it's just a binary gating "It's too hot/cold to be here, you need X item", which I think is a shame. At least before it was something, even if that something was unrefined.

    So? Just because it wasn't adequately explained doesn't mean it was worth scrapping.

    If you balance it against stamina, as I suggested, you can make it as finite as you please.

    Oh yes, I'd love to hear the "balance" explanation for not being able to double-jump while sprinting. Because that would be so OP.

    Well, clearly. Do you think so? Would it really be that bad for sprint to be a default tech?

    Maybe I would if ropes didn't fail to catch on walls like 1/3 of the time, for whatever reason.
     
  6. Xylia

    Xylia Tiy's Beard

    What kind of hardware do you have? I'm running 16GB, 3.5Ghz 6-Core, and a GTX 660... I can't imagine getting 60FPS in Glad unless you had, I don't know, a $3000 rig or something, yeeesh.


    Then why did you use DS1 to point out an example, when DS1 was far, far, far worse? You don't go "I'm talking about things like....." and list examples that are much worse than what you're trying to talk about, lol.

    Well, see, SB isn't as mature. It's 1.0. Terraria is 1.3, 5 years (?) after its 1.0. Go look up screenshots and various info about what Terraria 1.0 was like if you don't remember what it was. It sucked compared to now.

    You'd have to track which weapon(s) you had switched from last, which weapon you're switching back to, etc. Maybe they didn't want to have to track all of that? And besides, there's a small bit of realism in that -- when you whip out a gun, you're usually either drawing it from a holster, or unslinging it off your back, so there's always going to be a couple second delay while you ready the weapon. In-game, there's no such animation of drawing or unslinging, so maybe the delay is meant to simulate the time? Now, for pistols and the like, you can fast-draw like the old westerns, but that's a bit difficult to do with, say, a sniper rifle.

    Of course that doesn't explain why you can fast-draw an assault rifle, but eh. What do you want them to do, add a delay on ALL guns to make up for it? *grins*

    I didn't say they used those exact words, but that's the tone their posts were dripping with.

    Maybe they will take a page from the Stackable Food Rot mod and implement that into the game, who knows. Right now, AFAIK, they're still in "Bugfix Phase". Wait until the balance pass and see if they change it.

    Did you try making a suggestion for this in the suggestion forum? I'm sure people would love a Quick Heal button too....

    Well like I said earlier, there IS a mod to change this. There IS a stackable mod that still allows food rot, so why not use that? I mean, yes, you need a mod blah blah, but if it fixes the problem, why complain about it?

    I think what happened is that they realized there was no real way to actually refine it and have it actually feel good for gameplay. In the end, you had a choice: wear good armor, or wear armor that had cold protection... or wear good armor and stand near torches every 30-45 seconds, lol.

    It still boils down to the same thing, because people don't like wearing wimpy armor just to circumvent a mechanic that says "WEAR WIMPY ARMOR OR DIE". I, myself, tend to really hate that.

    It was convoluted with lots of "if this then that" and it would have required a huge tutorial to actually explain the whole thing, and unlike something like techs, I'm not sure that they could find an actual in-game way of explaining how the hotbar works. If you didn't notice, they tried not to break the 4th wall too much in the game, they seem to want the game to be playable without some 4th-wall immersion breaking tutorial that tells you how the UI works.

    If you need a tutorial on how to use a hotbar, then the hotbar system is just too complicated and unintuitive.

    This system is so very simple and easy to use, the only bad thing is it has too few slots. But again, many people gave them mockups of a 12 button system, let's hope they pick one and roll with it, as they promised to revisit the hotbar again.

    Then it comes down to "wear energy armor if you want to have good movement". We already have a problem that energy armor is a bit too OP because it has good damage AND allows you to use guns way better. Now you want to add better movement onto energy armor as well?

    You can actually. I do it all the time. You sprint, make your first jump, and let off the A or D key a split second before you hit the spacebar and you WILL get your 2nd jump and as soon as you hit the ground again, resume sprinting. The only thing you lose is some forward momentum during the 2nd jump, but meh. I rarely notice it. Once I learned how to do this, I don't complain about it anymore.

    You mean, Sprint to replace Dash? You want the best Body Tech to be the first one available? lol. Why not make Multi-Jump or Spike Ball the first Head/Legs Tech available while we're at it... then nobody would need tech cards....

    Hey I get it, that we have so few techs, and we could use more... but again, content patches. They'll come.

    I've seen the behavior where you'll throw a rope you'll hear the *CLINK* sound and the rope disappears... I think it's a bug... hey good thing they're in the bugfix phase right now, maybe that'll be one of the bugs that gets squashed. They've already tweaked the grappling gun once, maybe they'll squash this bug here soon too.
     
  7. Sharp(JQ)

    Sharp(JQ) Ketchup Robot

    Without the invasions the colonies are not interesting.
     
  8. Xylia

    Xylia Tiy's Beard

    I'd rather NOT have invasions, kthx.

    I would just be happy building a nice looking colony, and of course the crew members, quests, and rent payments would be cool too.

    Again, SB isn't really a combat-heavy game. It HAS combat, but it ain't the main focus of the game.
     
  9. Sharp(JQ)

    Sharp(JQ) Ketchup Robot

    And what is the point to stay in one place where nothing happens?
     
  10. General Nuclear

    General Nuclear Supernova

    build a sick ass huge sand castle with a lava moat and party room on the inside with lots of people in it and have a party also fireworks
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2016
  11. Sharp(JQ)

    Sharp(JQ) Ketchup Robot

    I want guests to the party. With weapon. :) And turrets, traps, moats and boiling oil to meet them.
     
  12. Xylia

    Xylia Tiy's Beard

    So basically you just want a pixel farm, be all safe and secure while turrets and moats murder everything that comes in....
     
  13. alextulinov

    alextulinov Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    But what if you use bieber a old albums?(yes I get,outdated memes whatever)
     
  14. Denny Davito

    Denny Davito Space Hobo

    Uninstall
     
  15. DJFlare84

    DJFlare84 Spaceman Spiff

    "I just beat the Ender Dragon in MineCraft. What do I do now? I think I'm done.".

    Some people might disagree, but those people are dead wrong. This is the exact same thing.

    You're not supposed to treat Starbound as an adventure with a goal. It's a sandbox. Go make some castles.
     
  16. Hellcorn

    Hellcorn Astral Cartographer

    Go on a murder spree in hylotal settlements
     
  17. General Nuclear

    General Nuclear Supernova

    the lack of sssssss and floran in that sentence makes me very suspicious about you :lod:
     
  18. RedPanda_Warrior

    RedPanda_Warrior Star Wrangler

    As stated before, mods can really help with this. Base building is fun too. You could try making a huge colony that spreads over the stars, and maybe a museum to show stuff that you collected. I made a museum once, but I included racial exhibits all on different planets. Lots of mods add decorative stuff, so try using that. If you need construction ideas/have ideas, feel free to check out my recent thread, Construction Ideas. It's in the screenshots section. As of when I posted this, there are no replies. But my thread is supposed to be a helpful resource, so it would really help if you added something!!!
     
  19. Hellcorn

    Hellcorn Astral Cartographer

    I try to supresss the sssssss :nuruneutral:(nervous face)
     
  20. seldr26

    seldr26 Space Hobo

    Hi im sean and id just like to say tjat from my experience starbound infinitley renders planets. So there are so so so so many hostile ships to wreck. Assuming you went through tje game fast (like me) there is alot of loot. Also just download mods, make mods if you can. Complete bounty missions
     
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