suggestion on avoiding point-based skill systems

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by SeanMiddleditch, Dec 7, 2014.

  1. SeanMiddleditch

    SeanMiddleditch Aquatic Astronaut

    The blog updates have shown a skill system that leaves me a little... worried? Concerned?

    The system illustrated is a point-based system with skills ranging from small numbers to at least a couple dozen. The example given shows a skill value of "20" being needed to discover a secret.

    The RPG industry has moved strongly away from these kinds of small scalar skill values. Bigger computer RPGs like Skyrim or Mass Effect 2+ or smaller indie RPGs like the Legend of Grimrock 2 or even table-top RPGs like D&D 5th Edition have moved to "chunkier" skill systems compared to older entries in their series. Compare Skyrim to Morrowind or Grimrock 2 to Grimrock 1 or D&D 5th ed. vs 3rd.

    There are various reasons why these approaches are being considered as superior to point-based skill system by so many in-the-trenches designers. "Chunkier" systems are more rewarding to players: each skill purchased has a direct and meaningful impact and benefit to the player. When you already have 10-20 points in a skill, it feels fairly meaningless to put +1 or even +2 into that skill. Many players under such skill systems tend to just dump all their points into a single skill anyway at each level-up opportunity in order to (unknowingly) simulate a chunkier skill system.

    Chunkier skill systems also allow for more interesting character progression systems. Consider a game that gives you the choice between gaining either (a) a choice of +3% efficacy with daggers vs a +2% reduction in damage taken or (b) a choice of the ability to back-stab for 2x or the ability to deflect spells with a timed defense. The latter provides a more interesting progression in characters and more interesting choices for players. A point system is not wholly incompatible with gaining new abilities, of course, but it can take those fun choices away and replace them with "put 2 points here to eventually gain some ability or put 2 points there to be able to spot better secrets." It's not as fun.

    The trend for newer, more streamlined RPGs with mass appeal is to either eschew points in skills entirely or to reduce those points to just a few levels (e.g., 5 levels, with each level in the skill having an easily observable impact on the character's capability).

    Likewise, skill trees have been either shortened heavily or removed entirely in cases the tree couldn't be made meaningful and logical (one problem with trees is that they tend to homogenize character builds even in point-based systems, and bad trees tend to lead to tons of unused redundant low-level abilities being in a high-level characters' repertoire). 5th ed. D&D almost completely removed the big tree of feats from 3rd ed. and the feats remaining are chunkier, more impactful, and even replace the sole remaining point-based system in the game (which is a shallower and rarely-used system compared to purely point-based systems).

    Speaking purely on a personal level, I've actually found many of the other "old school" RPGs that try to throwback to game systems of yesteryear to be incredibly tedious. 12-year-old me didn't know any better and thought Fallout 1 to be a fantastic system, but 30-year-old me has no interest in investing in the meta-game time to course out the ideal point spread or skill tree path through a game like Spiderweb's Avernum. If anything, I find that those kinds of point-based systems make levelling stressful instead of rewarding and fun.

    Summary: avoid point-based character progression systems and prefer approaches that give only meaningful and fun choices to the player.
     
    • Tweak

      Tweak Scruffy Nerf-Herder

      Assume much? You might have a point, that is if you hadn't taken one thing and completely removed it out of context from everything else. Yeah, having the attribute (what I think you mean by "skill points" in other games) choices is kind of pointless if you set up your game around strict roles that only have one viable choice (e.g. no reward for a strong wizard, which instead feels more like a penalty for making a choice that was not accommodated by game design). That doesn't make it impossible for the point system to be fun, it just means the point system is best used within a much more versatile design.

      This game doesn't appear to me to be a bandwagon venture that sees success elsewhere and says, "yeah, I can do that too, let's mimic!" The skills/attributes are just one layer (if you will) in character customization. I think this game aims to have lots of interesting ways to combine attributes, classes (and etc?) into a unique set of abilities out of a very deep pool of possibilities.

      I'll admit, there is a possible truth behind your case - in general, giving people too many choices can lead to indecision (big reason why I never got going in Morrowind, but love Skyrim). But context still matters. The question isn't what others did with the system, the question is what will this team do with it? Nothing I've seen leads me to believe the freedom of choice will be so meaningless in WitchMarsh.
       
        Last edited: Dec 9, 2014
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      • Leschinsky

        Leschinsky Scruffy Nerf-Herder

        Ehh, like lighting fires in the forests and drinking moonshine; moderation is key.
        Rushing to homogenize into the current trend of simple RPG mechanics is just as bad as stomping your foot down on the clunkier systems of old.
        Admittedly, we don't know /too/ much about the skill system yet, but taking a guess from the trailer and other aspects of the game?
        Witchmarsh looks like it's hitting the perfect middle-road stride of old-school difficulty, with the streamlining that's an industry standard today.
         
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