(link to reddit version) v1.1 - grammar correction (thanks Tsumyane) - new organization - added Table of content (new parts highlighted in blue) - added two new "tech update concepts" (Upgrade Level-up, and TechTree) - added EPPs' part - added players suggestions Gameplay behind Techs What are techs about? New input system Techs Tech Examples Upgrades Now "upgrades" New upgrades Tech Level Up Tech Tree Custom Tech System EPPs Mini EPP Augments Improvements List Suggestions Tech Apex Techs and upgrades Inputs improvements Hi! First of all, the game is really awesome, I love it. But... The tech system is horrible, I'm sorry. There is huge game design mistakes (order, upgrades options, choice, inputs, high energy cost, etc). And tech is about gameplay, it's a really big thing in 2D platform (sandbox) games. It feels like Tech System is still in beta test. Stuck two years back in time. https://www.reddit.com/r/Starbound/comments/1tzvbp/suggestion_make_techs_more_race_oriented/ All techs are visible early, just like they ask us to test the system. The Apex Tech guy only have 3 tech challenges, for the free techs, but not for the mysterious upgrades that cost many "Tech drives" (8 for all of them feels really balanced), we had more Techs in beta (gravity bubble, bouncing ball, ...), etc. Or maybe I missed something? Tell me if I'm wrong. So I will detail what I thing is bad, and why, then suggest some improvements. I just want to help. New tech upgrades system (link) Gameplay behind Techs What are techs about? It's about upgrades (gameplay improvement), in Metroid games (yes, I'll talk about Metroid, because many things in the game comes from Metroid games), or Castelvania, Megaman, etc. You start with a "jump", then you unlock "high jump", then"double jump", then "triple jump" etc. It increases in power and is important for players in the "feeling reward concept". It works just like weapons, a quest of power, in mobility (and quality of life) instead of fighting. We have infinite weapons possibilities, but only 3 techs (with 9 upgrades). Usually a new upgrade replace the old one. In Starbound, if you have to choose between multiples techs (or buy them) it must be for interesting and good reasons, because all techs cost 8 "tech drives". Is this cost meaning they're supposed to be as useful as each others? The tech system needs to be improved, at least like the "matter manipulator" upgrade system was improved. There is also good thing obviously. Early game oxygen supply backpack is better than the old heat / cold tech. But the EPP system is too strong in the mid game, I think some improvements could be done, and late game we could have the "4th passive NanoTech" return to support all kinds of environments at the same time. Tech challenges is a really good idea, I would like to see a tech challenge for every tech. It must be a teaser, or a way to test a tech before buying it. New input system Having a button for tech (F) is an interesting idea, it could be soooo useful, because there is no lack of buttons, unlike for Metroid games. Here, in Starbound, F button reminds me of the "special move button" in Smash Bros games. For now, we can press F, or Hold F. We could also double press F (the same way pressing or double pressing Left / Right makes different things happen), or F + Down (it could be the new way to activate morphball), press F + UP and F + Right / Left. It could also work while in morphball! During morphball, press one direction + F to use a morphball tech upgrade! We can do even more: while in human form, we could double press Down to turn into morphball, (then double press Up to turn back human) so you still have all F inputs for more techs! (F + Down = "Sonic dash") - (while in human form) double right / left = dash - (human) press F (or hold F, or double F, or move + F) = new techs - (human) double down = morphball - (while in morphball form) double up = turn back into human - (morphball) press down = toggle "spike ball" on/off (just like in Metroid 2, because no jumps in morphball sucks) - (morphball) double right / left = morphball dash - (morphball) space bar = jump (could be upgraded into an higher jump) - (morphball + in air) space bar = double jump (or something else, I would like the glad giraffe "gravity sphere" back for example) - (morphball) F = old giraffe bouncing ball (to reduce fall damages) - (morphball) Down + F = ("sonic ball dash", just like "Sonic the Hedgehog" game) - (morphball) Up + F = something new - (morphball) Right / Left + F = something new - (morphball) double F = something new - (morphball) Left click = something new (maybe some fighting / digging ability) - (morphball) Right click = something new (maybe some defensive ability) I'm not saying "they shoud use all of it". I'm just making suggestions. The "F + direction" could need some practice at start (by the way, we don't have every tech in the earlygame, so players would have enough time to adapt) but it would be really useful for multiple reasons. Smash Bros is a platform game too, this mechanic works well, and everybody knows at least a bit of Smash games, even kids can play it. You can also use a HUD option to show permanently which tech you are using, just like MegaByte Punch (a SmashBros like indie game). Look at the bottom left corner in this video for a few seconds. (copy past this at the end of the youtube web address: #t=2m40s ) So let's get started. Techs We start with 3 tech quite early (its fast, it's cool), "dash" is common and useful enough, "morphball" is (quite) useless and boring (bad jump, no energy restoration, not faster than human form, no fighting or digging ability), while "double jump" is far too useful as a 1st tech. After that, the "apex tech guy" never talk to us again. It feels so sad. Then, we can upgrade all tech at once with no unlocking process. "Apex tech guy" could be working on tech upgrades and later ask us to test the "multi jump" or "aqua ball", so we can get those upgrades. That would be far more immersive. "Unlock" means "reward" (even randomly), rewards makes happy players. The "morphball" is not fun, I'm sorry. The concept of Metroid's morphball is "making you reach rooms you couldn't without it". But Metroid is built for a full exploration experience, Starbound is a sandbox game. If you want a good "morphball" in Starbound, maybe make it able to dig or fight. Even Metroid's mophball can destroy blocks or fight little mobs. Starbound "morphball" is a failure concept for now. And we have to choose between "aqua ball", "spike ball" or "sonic dash ball"? This tech needs the "spike" and "sonic dash" ability in order to have some interest. Like I said earlier, they all cost 8 tech drives just like the "multi jump", I do around 20 jumps / minute, and one morphball / hour. Big math mistake here... Plus, the morphball don't restore energy. Why? It's too powerful to change form so they nerfed it? Head alt Techs: Maybe we could have a flying morphball alternative : the "morph drone". Allowing to fly for a short distance. We could also add a digging form, a swimming form, a beta tech return (gravity / bouncing bubble) or something completely new. "Double jump" as the first "legs tech" is like giving us a lvl 5 weapon in the intro mission, that makes every others tech almost useless, or at least not even interesting. Only the "multi jump" could make me swap but I could finish the game with double jump. This is the problem: there is no true choice of tech, you can swap for a better tech or just keep "double jump" (while "double jump" is a free tech unlike the others). The first "legs tech" should be more interesting than a basic jump, but less than a double jump. My idea would be a "higher jump" (it's also in Metroid, before you acquire "double jump" / "space jump"). Legs alt Techs: A "jet pack" alt tech, allowing to fly horizontally (while "double jump" is vertical). "Dash" is a good one, nothing to say, it's not too powerful, not as useful as "double jump", but not useless like "morphball". Good choice. The problem is about its upgrades options. "Air dash" is a true upgrade : the same tech, with new bonus. The beta "long dash" could also return as upgrade. Body alt Techs: "Blink" and "run" should be different kind of Techs, not upgrades for the "dash" Tech. "Nano Tech" (the old 4th tech) was really toooooo strong in glad giraffe (at least for early game). And the new backpack (EPPs) system is from what I think the best way they could bring hostile environment protections but I don't get why they removed the 4th "Nano Tech" slot. It could be useful late game, providing some "passive" resistances (that we have to unlock slowly), while backpack fill the others lacks, just like now. Plus, Nano tech was a really cool roleplay concept. They should make it come back but in really lategame just for the comfort. That would make us feel stronger, it's a good gameplay and roleplay progression. Back alt Techs: General upgrades. "Energy cost" -50%, "fall damage reduction" 50%, etc. When we make new techs / upgrades we need to focus on objectives. “What do we want to improve?” I'll use TD for Tech Drive. Examples of new techs: Basic tech "Morphball" (let's make it useful to roll in ball in some situation) - "speed ball" (2TD) (roll faster than human form because morphball can't do nothing than roll, it makes it good for something at least) - "aqua ball lvl1" (1 TD) (better in liquids) - "jump ball" (2TD) (allow to jump higher) - "solid ball lvl1" (5 TD) (reduce some fall damage, makes the morphball more useful in any situation) - "aqua ball lvl2" (10TD) (lava damage reduction, upgrade of "aqua ball lvl1") Spe "Mobility ball" (upgrades for mobility, for more fun while moving in morphball) - "dash ball" (3 TD) (can perform a dash during morphball) - "air dash ball" (3TD) (can perform an air dash during morphball) - "spike ball" (4TD) (allow to climb walls during morphball, tap down to toggle on/off) - "gravity ball" (8TD) (allow to stop falling few seconds during morphball, can still move right / left, glad giraffe "gravity bubble") Spe "Mining Ball" (mining tools for the morphball, it's just an example that could be interesting since the morphball is smaller than the human form). - "drill ball lvl1" (1TD) (mining blocs if holding a direction) - "waterproof ball" (3TD) (can't be affected by water, poison and oil status) - "sponge ball" (2TD) (absorb liquids by contact) - "solid ball lvl2" (4TD) (reduce falling dmg, mining comfort, upgrade of " solid ball lvl1") - "drill ball lvl2" (2TD) (mines faster, upgrade of "drill ball lvl1") - "solid ball lvl3" (10TD) (no falling damage, upgrade of "solid ball lvl2") Spe "Fighting ball": (weapons in order to fight as a morphball (using mouse in morphball)) - "defensive ball lvl1" (2TD) (right click to put a bomb on the ground that explodes shortly after) - "wave ball" (1TD) (transforming into morphball in order to knockback close monsters) - "armor ball lvl1" (1TD) (increase armor stat during morphball) - "attack ball lvl1" (2TD) (left click launch a grenade in the air) - "defensive ball lvl2" (1TD) (right click to put a proximity mine on the ground that explodes on enemy contact, upgrade of "defensive ball lvl1") - "attack ball lvl2" (2TD) (left click launch a rocket in the air, upgrade of " attack ball lvl1") - "defense ball lvl3" (3TD) (hold right click to get a protective aura, like the aura beam hammer, upgrade of "defensive ball lvl2") - "armor ball lvl2" (3TD) (increase armor stat during morphball, upgrade of "armor ball lvl1") - "attack ball lvl3" (3TD) (left click to launch a homing rocket in the air, upgrade of "attack ball lvl2") - "power ball" (8TD) (augment damage stat during morphball) Others (players suggestions): - "sharp ball" (deal damage to enemies by contact) (DownMan Maverick suggestion) - "damage reduction" techs (Waffolani suggestion) - "multidirectional air dash" (dash in every direction) (DownMan Maverick suggestion) - "targeted blink dash" (blink in the direction of your mouse) (DownMan Maverick suggestion) Upgrades Now "upgrades" Most of the upgrades are not interesting enough to cost 8 "Tech Drive". Also half of them are not upgrades but variants. "Morphball" can switch between : "aqua ball", "spike ball" or "dash ball" As I said earlier, "morphball" is not really useful like this, all of those options could work at the same time (double tap for a dash ball) but the "morphball" will still be less used because it's not fun or worth at all. "Double jump" can switch between: "multi jump", "rocket jump" or "wall jump" We should start with a high jump, then come back later to buy the best jump tech ever in platfomers consensus : the "double jump". Then later we could add a triple jump upgrade. As for the "wall jump", it is as useful as the morphball: too situational. So, the "wall jump" shouldn't be a choice but a permanent upgrade. It could also be changed to give it some better use. "Dash" can switch between: "air dash", "blink" or "run" "Air dash" is a good upgrade, well made, nothing to say. "Blink" cooldown is a bit high (we could upgrade it, just like we could upgrade it again later to blink on mouse cursor). Where is the old glad giraffe "long dash"? that would be a good upgrade as well. "Sprint" is an interesting variation, but here we are... 3 years back in time, when everybody told you that energy cost on the dash tech was a mistake, so we keep the dash tech for no cost (because energy is also used for weapons). It should work like Metroid games' "speed boost" (when you run in a direction for a while, no stop, no jump, the player turn into a "fast run mod") so you still can dash (double right / left) + run (hold right / left if terrain is good for). We could upgrade "sprint" to deal damage to enemies or knock them out, and even deal enough block damage to dig dirt / mud or any block of this kind. add : #t=1m45s New upgrades system Upgrades should offer multiple options on techs, or being combinable with custom slots, or at least having multiple levels. And we could unlock upgrades via quests (for "Apex tech guy"), or random tech blueprint loots (like EPP loots), or even achievements ("jump" 500 times to unlock "double jump", "double jump 500 time to unlock "triple jump", etc) So there is for now 3 different kind of upgrade systems concept: - Tech level up (DownMan Maverick suggestion) - Tech Tree - Custom Tech System Just improve current tech with some kind of level up, upgrade the upgrades in the same way ("dash" > "air dash" > "multidirectional air dash") -------------------------/> aqua ball > waterproof ball (no liquid status effect, reduce lava damages) Morphball---------{ > spike ball > grappling ball (can use a short grappling hook with your mouse) -------------------------\> sonic ball > sharp sonic ball (damages enemies during a sonic dash) (DownMan Maverick suggestion) -------------------------/> air dash > multidirectional air dash (dash in mouse direction) (DownMan Maverick suggestion) Dash----------------{ > sprint > acceleration sprint (sprint faster and faster, no energy cost) -------------------------\> blink dash > targeted blink dash (blink in mouse direction) (DownMan Maverick suggestion) ------------------------/> triple jump > multi jump (4 jumps) Double jump----{ > rocket jump > rocket boots (fly on short distance, no energy cost) ------------------------\> wall jump > ninja jump (stick to walls, press down to glide down) Allowing to upgrade a techs into 3 forms, then we can upgrades the upgrades again with 3 new options for more personalisation. Morphball: ------------------------/> waterproof aqua ball (no liquid status effect, reduce lava damages) aqua ball---------{ > swimming aqua ball (free moves in liquids) ------------------------\> sponge aqua ball (absorb liquids by contact) ------------------------/> grappling spike ball (can use a short grappling hook with your mouse) spike ball---------{ > drill spike ball (can dig 2x2 with your mouse) ------------------------\> speed spike ball (roll faster) ------------------------/> sharp sonic ball (damages enemies during a sonic dash) (DownMan Maverick suggestion) sonic ball---------{ > bouncing sonic ball (bounce after a sonic dash, keep the momentum) ------------------------\> targeted sonic ball (dash in the direction of your mouse) Dash: ------------------------/> multidirectional air dash (dash in every direction) air dash-----------{ > long air dash (dash further) ------------------------\> sharp air dash (deal damages when dashing through enemies) ------------------------/> acceleration sprint (sprint faster and faster, no energy cost) sprint--------------{ > dynamic sprint (can use your double jump while sprinting, no energy cost) ------------------------\> sharp sprint (deal damages when sprinting into enemies, no energy cost) ------------------------/> targeted blink dash (blink in the direction of your mouse) blink dash--------{ > explosion in blink (deal damages when disappearing near enemies) ------------------------\> explosion out blink (deal damages when appearing near enemies) Double jump: ------------------------/> multi jump (4 jumps) triple jump-------{ > safe jump (infinity "jumps" but it can only be use to go down slowly, to deny fall damages) ------------------------\> ------------------------/> rocket boots (fly on short distance, no energy cost) rocket jump------{ > ------------------------\> ------------------------/> ninja jump (stick to walls, press down to glide down) wall jump---------{ > double wall jump (you can double jump after each wall jump) ------------------------\> Unlock all upgrades independently and choose multiple of them to use at the same time, mixing them into a customisable Tech ("aqua ball" + "sonic ball", or "aqua ball" + "spike ball", or "spike ball + sonic ball", etc). I would make everything slowly unlockable during game (with Tech's apex quests, or tech blueprints for more random collectibles), but only a few slots by tech, so we choose how to upgrade our techs, our style. So everybody will have his own morphball, or jump tech, etc. We could start with 1 slot by part then upgrade it for more slots (up to 3 or 4 would be good enough, + some vanity upgrades, maybe like a "skin slot" or "particles emission slot"?). (look at the modified tech console image I made: link) (compare it with the curent tech system: link) 1) tech parts (basic techs given by apex: morphball, high jump, dash, and nanotechs) 2) tech upgrades slots (add-ons for techs parts: aqua ball, double jump, blink, cold resistance, etc) 3) vanity slot (only for vanity upgrades, like "skin " or "particles emission") 4) list of vanity upgrades 5) list of upgrades 6) tech options (available, equipped, bought or locked) 7) tech test button (to do the tech test challenge / tech teaser) 8) equip / buy tech button 9) current selected tech / upgrade description That may be complicated, but it's a big part of gameplay, the mobility part, as important as weapons for fighting part. And the game is here, they have no time limit to work on tech system and make it good. EPPs Environmental Protection Packs are exactly how tech and upgrades must be: There is the "breathable tech" and we do upgrade it multiple time (here we don't have choices again, but it's a little better than Tech system) into "breath + radiation", and more. lv1 : Breathing EPP Allows players to breathe on airless planets lvl2 : Radiation EPP Upgrade Makes players immune to the radiation planetary debuff. Also allows players to breathe on airless planets lvl3 : Heating EPP Upgrade Makes players immune to the deadly cold planetary debuff. Also allows breathing and protection from radiation. lvl4 : Cooling EPP Upgrade Makes players immune to the extreme heat planetary debuff. Also allows breathing, protection from radiation and deadly cold. But, is that really efficient? We can cumulate augments while planets didn't. Early game I would like to have only one EPP augment at once and choose which backpack i would like to equip before exploring a planet: exploring aqua planet or asteroid? Oxygen supply. Then exploring radioactive planet, so i switch my oxygen supply for the Radiation EPP. Then a cold planet? I switch again. Isn't it more roleplay (like choosing which weapon on which enemy)? Is it really more hard? Because we can see if a planet is radioactive on ship board, it's highlighted in red, you can't miss it. It will not really change many things to choose before exploring a planet. It's just more balanced for the "power quest", and it's fundamental in the "feeling reward concept". Again Starbound tried to copy Metroid for bad reasons. In Metroid the NanoTech (known as ChozoSuit) cumulates protections because in Metroid you are forced to 1st cross an high temperature zone, do a mission inside it, then later you gain the heat protection. You now feel happy and relieved to not be stressed in those zones you encountered before where you slowly lost your life. In Starbound, you can't explore theses planets at all (dying too fast) if you don't have the good backpack. So you just craft ONE item you put in your back. You just did it once because you just have to upgrade it until the end of the game (zero "feeling reward" because it's all automatic). Why can we switch this item if we have no other item to put in? For example it would have been the same to keep the NanoTech and remove that spot (and maybe keep the vanilla). It is not optimum at all but it's better than having a backpack spot for only 2 items (the light or the EPP). That will also make the other EPPs mini augment more interesting. Because we have to choose a backpack before a mission, we just not put them all on the same item (its again too basic to just put mini augments only on 1 backpack we can permanently upgrade, while we can purchase / find them) So we can have the old 4th "NanoTech" that allow us to be permanently protected on airless planets. Be extremely happy to resist multiple planets at the same time, feeling powerful. But not so fast. We should unlock our 1st NanoTech after crafting all kind of EPP, then choose heat protection for 4 Tech Drive, or cold for 4TD, radiation for 4 TD, oxygen supply for 8 TD (because oxygen is more useful, in water, stuck in sand, ect). They could also add planets protection in random mini augments, to add oxygen supply on our radiation EPP (and vise versa), but only if we find them luckily (ultra rare), not buy purchasing them, because it would ruin the whole NanoTech upgrade system. I played and finished every Metroid games (and many Megaman and others games, because they are few and short, I'm not a big fan, they are just really good games) so Starbound tech makes me so sad, and I'm surprised that not many things had changed since koala (while all the rest became really far far better) Again, i love this game, i just dislike the tech system, and I just want to help. Thanks for all. Feel free to share your ideas and to correct me. I already can't wait for a tech update! Improvements List Suggestions Apex Tech Guy: - techs and upgrades unlocked slowly during game through quests (from apex tech guy), giving him random blueprint techs drops, or achivments (500 "jump" to unlock "double jump") - apex tech guy wants to talk to us every time we unlock a tech / find a tech blueprint and ask us to test his new tech challenge room - mini tech challenge for each tech / upgrade (can be done multiple times) Techs and upgrades: - tech drive cost / utility (not 8 for each tech) - level-up upgrade system (upgrade the upgrades) (DownMan Maverick suggestion) - tech tree system (3 options for each upgrades) - custom techs system = basic tech + upgrade slots + vanity slots (upgrade for more slots) - vanity tech : morphball skin, double jump animation / particles, dash animation / particles, etc - some "fall damage reduction techs" return (Waffolani suggestion) - momentum for dashes (Waffolani suggestion) - fix "wall jump" issues (while climbing mountains and digging diagonaly up) - "run tech" shouldn't have energy cost. It could be upgraded to deal damages or dig blocks (Metroid like) - "morphball" should be faster - "spike ball" could be toggle off while in ball form (to jump and roll faster OR not and climb walls) - being in "morphball" should restore energy (after the casting cooldown) as usually when you cast something - "air dash" could be upgraded to dash in multiple direction (or mouse direction) (DownMan Maverick suggestion) - "sonic ball" dash into enemies to deal damages (DownMan Maverick suggestion) - some "damages by contact" upgrade on the morphball (DownMan Maverick suggestion) - more kinds of techs for each body part (legs, body, head, and the 4th "backpack / nano" tech) - more upgrades (legs: higher jump > double jump > triple jump > fall damage reduction) - EPP rework (stackable effects are too strong in earlygame, need a slower progression, only one environmental protection for each EPP) - 4th passive tech slot come back (for late game comfort but still need EPPs early and late for others bonus) Inputs improvements: - rework input (SmashBros special moves: direction + F, Metroid : double press down for morphball, double press up to return back, press F different from hold F or double press F, etc.) - toggle on / off techs in the inventory (just click on tech to enable / disable it : "dash" can be dangerous during challenges) - Hotkey for dash tech (Waffolani suggestion : double-tap is nice and all, but not in the heat of combat, Megaman X games from SNES had double-tap dash, but ALSO a button dedicated for dashing as well.)
As I would say in french: mwaip. Now, that is very interessing, because you see, I do agree with some parts of what you're saying, but it seems that it is heavily linked to your gameplay. You're saying that, for example, morphball's upgrades are useless, while I use the speed ball quite a lot, since you can go quite far if you combine it with the pulse jump. That being said, I'm not suggesting that I've got a better point than you have, cuz ya know, everybody's got his/her ways. But what matter is the way that each one plays, not only your opinion. Now for the techs: As I said before, I like the speed ball, for the speed that it give you, and also because of the simple fact that you can reach zones unvalable normally. For the jump tech, I did try the multi-jump, but since it doesn't give you an upward boost as strong as the classic one, I've preferred the wall jump one, which is useful for what I like to do (ya know, stealing in glitch castle, fighting on the rooves, thoses things..) And finally for the dash tech... Welp, apart from the fact that I don't use it often, since for me it doesn't give you enough boost, whether you're on the ground or on mid air. It's just that it lack in momentum. Yet, it can be quite useful. And for the forth tech slot, it can be nothing else than interessing, for me.
Actually it's not really "all about my opinion", it's all about Metroid. If Metroid did it better, Starbound can do it too. And it works for Starbound content now, not about an eventualy new Tech Stytem. 8 "Tech Card" cost for every Upgrade, only 3 Tech challenges, all tech accessible at once, are big mistakes for everybody, i guess. But you right, new input system, and cutoms techs are "my ideas" because i played others game, and the beta before, and i feel like Techs didn't evolved like weapons, actually we have less Tech than the beta. I'm playing the "Spike ball" and "multi jump" because its "useful for what I like to do", but i could do the game with basics tech because upgrades are not really stronger enouth. And who is playing the "aqua ball" really? As you said, it is a question of style and all techs are situational ("speed ball" and "wall jump for glitch castle" are good exemples). We need some basic improvments, and more tech for more choices, to match with more players styles. Everything can be improved, i'm working on this thread for mutiples days, adding exemples, images, videos, experiances, to make it more easier to read / understand (and i'm sure i can still improve it). And i think Techs could be improved too, maybe not the way i said, but at least a bit.
I see your point, but I don't know if comparing Metroid and Starbound is the best thing to do, since they've got different oriented-gameplays, yet, and I agree with you, they've got similarities. What I'm looking for is upgrades for the upgrades themselves, in fact. For example, since I use a lot the speed ball, it could be useful for charging onto foes, or something like that. So yes, new upgrades, and upgrades for the already existing ones. --- Post updated --- I see your point, but I don't know if comparing Metroid and Starbound is the best thing to do, since they've got different oriented-gameplays, yet, and I agree with you, they've got similarities. What I'm looking for is upgrades for the upgrades themselves, in fact. For example, since I use a lot the speed ball, it could be useful for charging onto foes, or something like that. So yes, new upgrades, and upgrades for the already existing ones.
I totally understand your point, and its a pleasure to see your opinion. I also prefer more upgrades than more techs, because morphball is a good concept (being smaller and more mobile), double jump is quite a basic movement in many plateform games, just as dashing. So we have good basics techs at least. But we definitly need to upgrade them with more possibilities. But i'm triying to see further, and that's why i suggested more kind of Techs too, a new keybinding, etc. But if we could have upgrades for upgrades that would be good enouth (if we really have multiples far more upgrades). The probleme, is i think for the slot and custom system, they will need to rework the entier Tech system (so why not suggest more things?), while only new upgrades for upgrades is just a new tech with more tools (and far easyier to do) I'm sorry but how can't we compare them? Morphball, elements are ice, fire, electricity, (and poison, but why not light and dark? its space after all, light / dark works better in space than in heroic fantasy to me), backpack EPP resistances based on Metroid Suits, game design is based on terriaria, terraria is based on the "Metroidvania + sandbox" concept, etc. It's not a bad thing at all, Metroid are good games, and work well with the sandbox mechanics, and Starbound still have its own identity (with many things). I could compare Starbound and Terriria, in teraria the power quest is really well expreianced. Too slow in early game maybe and fast in late game, while starbound early is really well balanced (i'm definitly not talking about Techs here, but all the rest) and late game we dont feel really more powerful but more prepared (because we have tried and choosed many weapons, many auto supply, etc. It's not the same feeling). But terraria wings are too powerful and skill less to me, so there is only few big mistakes (Terraria is far older, grown slowly too, and had differents lacks). For the 4th NanoTech, it's my bad, i forgot to explain the part about EEPs system. (this part has been added to main post) EPP are exactly what tech and upgrades must be. There is the "breathable tech" and we do upgrade it (here we don't have the choice, which i think is a bad thing) into "breath + radiation", and more. lv1 : Breathing EPP Allows players to breathe on airless planets lvl2 : Radiation EPP Upgrade Makes players immune to the radiation planetary debuff. Also allows players to breathe on airless planets lvl3 : Heating EPP Upgrade Makes players immune to the deadly cold planetary debuff. Also allows breathing and protection from radiation. lvl4 : Cooling EPP Upgrade Makes players immune to the extreme heat planetary debuff. Also allows breathing, protection from radiation and deadly cold. But, is that really efficient? We can cumulate augments while planets didn't. Early game I would like to have only one EPP augment at once and choose which backpack i would like to equip before exploring a planet: exploring aqua planet or asteroid? Oxygen supply. Then exploring radioactive planet, so i switch my oxygen supply for the Radiation EPP. Then a cold planet? I switch again. Isn't it more roleplay (like choosing which weapon on which enemy)? Is it really more hard? Because we can see if a planet is radioactive on ship board, it's highlighted in red, you can't miss it. It will not really change many things to choose before exploring a planet. It's just more balanced for the "power quest", and it's fondamental in the "feeling reward concept". Again Starbonud tried to copy Metroid for bad reasons. In Metroid the NanoTech (knows as ChozoSuit) cumulate protections because im Metroid you are forced to 1st encounter heat zones, do mission in it, then later you gain the heat protection and feel happy and powerful to not be stressed in those zones you encounter before where you slowly lost your life. In Starbound not, you can't explore theses planets at all (dying too fast) if you don't have the good backpack, so you just craft an item you put in your back, you just did it once, no choices, because you just have upgrade it, till the end of the game (zero "feeling reward" because it's all automatic). That will also make the other EPPs mini augment more interesting. Because we have to choose a backpack before a mission, we just not put them all on the same (its again too basic to just put mini augments only on 1 backpack we can perma upgrade, while we can purchase / find them) So we can have the old 4th tech that allow us to be permanently protected on airless planets. Be extremely happy to resist multiple planets at the same time, feeling powerful. But not too fast. Maybe after crafting all kind of EEP we could unlock the 1st NonoTech slot, and choose heat protection for 4 Tech Drive, or cold for 4TD, radiation for 4 TD, oxygen supply for 8 TD (because oxygen is more useful, in water, stuck in sand, ect.). They could also add planets protection in random mini augments, to add oxygen supply on our radiation EPP, but only if we find it luckily, not buy purchasing it, because it would ruin the NanoTech upgrade system. The fun fact is that is how tech upgrades must be, and EPP did it well, but too soon / early / fast.
For the upgrades, we could organize them like a tree For example: Dash>Sprint >Air dash >Blink dash So now, we've got those three upgrades. If we take the Air dash, it could evolve into, say, a multidirectionnal dash, or for multiple dashes Or for the Blink dash, you could (with a big cost, of course) upgrade it into the targeted blink. I donn't have much ideas for the Sprint yet, but it's quite what I'm looking for
A number of things I'd like: Stackable techs. I want to be able to use multi-jump WHILE sprinting, or air dash and sprint. I want to be able to equip multiple types of tech per category. Think Metroid or Megaman. Hotkey for dash tech - double-tap is nice and all, but in the heat of combat, I want to be able to RELIABLY and REPEATABLY activate my dashes. Look at the Megaman X games from SNES - they had double-tap dash, but ALSO a button dedicated for dashing as well. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE give us this. Momentum! When we dash, we should be able to keep the momentum of the dash, allowing for "long jumps", etc. Again Megaman X-inspired. JET PACKS. We should get some sort of flight tech. I mean, come on - we're in SPACE, with FTL drives and laser weaponry, etc. Give me a jet pack or rocket wings or something! I want the mobility of a flight tech. See Terraria for an example. Some sort of tech to reduce fall damage. Fall damage kills me more than any other thing in the game. We should be able to get some sort of tech that allows us to alter gravity around us, or cushions our landing. Halo 1 (fall damage) to Halo 2 (no fall damage) is a good example. Make Sprint just an ability we unlock, and make it not consume energy. Or just make it a vehicle or something...rocket boots (think Star-Lord or Iron Man from Marvel). Our normal run speed is quite plodding for how large some of the worlds are.
Full of good ideas, both of you! It's not the topic here but I think the inventory slot should not stock weapons (and maybe we could have a new weapons + throwing weapons slot), because we already have 3 - 6 weapons + throwing weapons + healing items + scaner + pet balls + vehicules + ropes + glow sticks + fossils brush, etc, and we will find many new with quests or exploration. Upgrading the upgrades is really interesting and basic, i ll add it early in thread because it's a tiny update of the curent system, it shouldn't be hard to do. A "Tech Tree" is usual in video games and could work for starbound. Also i think the morphball shouldn't deny energy restoration, so we don't have to demorph / remorph to do multiple dashs (or some new techs). The "Sonic dash" could also work like in "Sonic the headgehog games": "down + F" (in case of an input rework). I will improve my post with your ideas.
I got the Spider Ball and the Wall Jump and I've never looked back. The Tech system is adequate enough for me. If it improves, however, I certainly won't complain; I just have no particular demand for it at this time.
It could be interesting to customize the techs themself Like, adding spikes or blades on the morphball, so that rolling into foes would do damage, for example
That's what i said. We just put a tech then we don't care anymore. The game could also have 3 kind of weapons (swords, guns and staffs) and be enjoyable. And it can be the best and still find improvements. Then we have to figure if it's worth enough. I reworked the main post with your suggestions and some optimisations: - grammar correction (thanks Tsumyane) - new organization - added Table of content (new parts highlighted in blue) - added two new "tech update concepts" (Upgrade Level-up, and TechTree) - added EPPs' part - added players suggestions Tell me what you think about Upgrade Level-up and TechTree parts.
Do you think tech upgrades could be used as a dungeon-end lootbox or something? (just thinking) There was someone one who was complaining about the lack of something you could fly with, like a jetpack Now, It could be an upgrade for (at least I think), the EPPs Also, what we could do is that you'll find objects marked as unknown techs, like in Metroid Zero Mission Those will have to be brought back to the apex tech guy, who ill analyse them, and enable them
That's all good way to unlock Techs i guess. Mysterious artifacts (from races, aliens, or another technology) converted into Techs by "Apex guy" could be really immersive. A flying Tech could be interesting but really late game, like the final boss reward or something like that. It should also not be infinite or too easy to use. I think they will add later some sort of flying vehicles i guess (only 2 kind of vehicles for now seems like a teaser) Btw I really don't like wings mechanics in terraria, all automatic, just hold space bar = fly. I would really prefer to jump multiple times (let's say 20 jumps) than just holding a button. Flying is already Over Powered, don't make it easy too. There is multiple way to fly in a platformer: - just hold "jump" to go up (it can be infinite or having a timer / high limit) like terraria's wings - press "jump" each time you want to go up (you can have a "jumps" number limit or not) like Metroid "space jump", it's not really flying but more "multi jumps" - or a mix between both, you have to press "jump" to go up for a short fly (lets say with "rocket boots"), after a short time you will fall, then you have to press "jump" again to reactivate your "rocket boots" and go up for a short time (as always it can be infinite or having a limit) The terraria way to fly could be the max level for a flying tech : starting with a hard fly ability then upgrading it into something more easy. Flying has a bad side : falling. A way to auto-nerf a flying tech could be to not add some sort of falling damage reduction, and let players auto-adapt to it. Then later we could unlock some "high fall damage reduction tech" to upgrade our "flying tech" in something more safety. Ways to make fly safe : - reduce fall speed (terraria) - reduce fall damages (Metroid)
We need to see what would be the most adapted way for Starbound And by the way, way upper in this topic, there was this qustion of a forth tech slot So we could add something to reduce fall damage
