Race The problem with most suggestions- my two cents.

Discussion in 'NPCs and Creatures' started by Ty525, Dec 22, 2013.


More racial suggestions need to be more creative and all around alien.

  1. I agree

    75 vote(s)
  2. I disagree (Please explain why in a response)

    9 vote(s)
  1. AldoKaido

    AldoKaido Starship Captain

    We have the right to criticize.

    Criticizing is an action.

    Words are loud when they are heard by many.

    If a choice is defended by a vocal majority,this doesn't give any proof at all that this choice is the right one.

    You don't need to be an artist to see if a picture is poorly drawn;and in the same effect,you don't need to "do better" to voice your opinion on something.

    We do not all want to spend or waste time learning how to make sprites to voice our discontent or prove a point.Each one's their hobbies.I do art.Others do knitting.Some do spriting.I can still say I don't like a piece of knitting or spriting,and they can still say I cannot draw straight.
    Monochromegoggles likes this.
  2. Peachy

    Peachy Star Wrangler

    The problem though is that popular doesn't necessarily equal good, and that everyone has different idea of good.(For instance if there's a race that fans of x topic like and they make that race popular even if no one else likes it) And the point of this post was to address the dozens of races that show up on this forum that are essentially copies of each other. Even if this theoretical race was to get popular, there'd probably be just as many furry races as there was to begin with anyway :/
    Monochromegoggles likes this.
  3. Monochromegoggles

    Monochromegoggles Phantasmal Quasar

    No. I don't think you understand what the issue is here. The issue IS that there are a lot of suggestions that are poorly designed and written. People are trying to address this issue and fix it by giving criticism and cc to the current suggestions. Problem is, people are either blatantly ignoring said criticism, or are throwing a massive hissy fit. Stubs with little to no useful information are being added, and people are still pushing for bland and uninteresting animals on two legs, despite suggestions and threads on how to write/create better race suggestions.

    And telling people to 'do better' is ridiculous. Not everyone is gifted in writing or drawing. This does not, however, mean they cannot tell a decent race suggestion from a poor one and do not have a right to say anything. It's equivalent to telling a customer at a restaurant that they can't complain that their meal is bad, simply because they cannot cook and are not a certified chef. If the meal is under cooked or burnt, the customer has a right to lodge a complaint. Same goes for racial suggestions.
  4. The | Suit

    The | Suit Agent S. Forum Moderator

    To put it bluntly.
    Let me firsy ask you this.

    Did you create a race suggestion which fills your own criteria - in which you believe would be the ideal solution for creating a race?
    Sure others maybe bad. But bad idea's are ignored. It doesn't matter - bad idea's will never be popular. There is no point in wasting 2 cents on them. If people want to post bad idea's let them. Does it effect you in anyway? Of course not.

    If you want to see some other alien race, you are equally allowed the right to post your own suggestion of what would befit as your own qualifiers as an alien race. But doesn't mean your race is any better then others. Truth be told you might be afraid people make the same ludicrous comments about your race, with the same opinion you hold others in.

    You do realize you have argued against your self with this point. Popularity does not mean "perfect" - it means popular. As in the majority. As you have clearly stated - some people may not like that race. It wouldn't be only "popular" if there was no one against it. If everyone agreed to it - it wouldn't just be popular it would be unanimous.

    The point from the OP was
    He clearly stated the aliens weren't. "Alien" enough for his tastes. Most were either humanoid or animal. He wanted something much more out of this world as suggestions. Again he doesn't create his own race. He just wants everyone else to fall into his own ideals of an ideal race.

    Even with your statement as you have clearly shown. You are against Furies. I personally don't care about furies. If people want to create furry races let them. In the end you resent the fact they are popular while some other race you like isn't as popular. You want people to like furies less and suggest more races in your own "ideal" mindset of what an alien race is.

    Of course you are just beating around the bush with the concept. I am just sheering through the bushes. But in the end that is the whole root of the argument. "Furry Races are not creative - and I think more alienish races should be suggested"

    Am I right? But the thing is. People can suggest what ever they want. So can you. You haven't really tried to suggest your own race. The OP has, it got about 2 pages of posts. Last one 2 months back. Maybe he is miffed it didn't get the popularity he was hoping for. No idea.

    Either way - saying other peoples suggestions aren't creative - when you your self haven't proved you are capable of creating your own creative race suggestion. Doesn't really add much credo.

    Do you believe threads like this will change anything?
    Some one will read it and be inspired?
    A bad writer is going to be a bad writer. They aren't going to magically change when reading this thread.
    Some people have good idea's and know how to write a good spec sheet. Some people just aren't capable of it.
    This thread - and the many threads like it will have absolutely no impact.

    The only way to have a good impact in the community is by writing good race sheet suggestions. In other words - threads about how to write threads are pretty much pointless. But threads which are actually properly written suggestions will inspire people who look at them to follow a format others have taken.

    What do you think is going to inspire you more?
    Seeing a hero save some one.
    Or some one telling you to be a hero on how to save some one.
    cyberspyXD and Jonesy like this.
  5. EchoesOfRain

    EchoesOfRain Big Damn Hero

    (ignoring most everything after original post) I agree that the races need to be more alien in appearances. That's the reason why I absolutely love the Avali race, they even break out of the generic humanoid anatomy that all other races have (which, sadly, is probably the reason they will never get added). The reason they are so popular is because they are so different. we need that thing that makes a race stand out, make people fall in love with them
  6. Monochromegoggles

    Monochromegoggles Phantasmal Quasar

    You still haven't understood my point that someone doesn't NEED to post a suggestion of their own to have a valid argument against someone else's suggestion. I point out things that have to do with suggestions for another race. They either fix the problem, or never update it and the thread crashes and burns under the weight of its own mediocrity and negative feedback.

    Uhm, no. If a bad writer is a bad writer and someone has pointed out what's wrong with it, then they have a chance to fix it, and BECOME a better writer. If you have the mindset that people cannot improve and fix the issue, then you are probably under the mistaken impression that the devs of starbound cannot make a better game merely because people have found bugs in it or have said something is broken.

    Look at alien races from a majority of more popular games. They're not just animals on legs now are they? They have distinct features that estrange them from humans. Even the bipedal races of mass effect are bizzare and have a cultural and societal structure of their own. And if you really stop and think hard about it, while aliens that are bipedal might be a strong possibility in space, with the plethora of planets that exist and the different environments, it's unlikely that they will be literal animals with human hands and feet. A creature does not have to be a quadruped or stand on more than two legs or no legs in order to have an 'alien design', but it DOES have to look different than carbon copy of an earth-creature.

    Again, I'm gonna use the customer to chef analogy. And popular does not = good. The OP probably stopped updating his thread because he didn't feel like it was worth it to fight with the constant undertow of bad suggestions.
    Also, stop and think about how many people visit the suggestions thread to how many that do not. Now divide that again by how many people like a suggestion vs how many that dislike it. It's a small number isn't it? Now if you say only people who like something should comment on a thread, then OF COURSE IT'S GOING TO SEEM POPULAR! But because you have already barred everyone who wants to voice dissapproval, how will we ever KNOW it's bad?!

    No, threads like this are meant to enlighten people and cause them to stop and THINK about their suggestion before they post it. Therefore, threads like this SERVE a purpose and are more useful because they break down the components of what makes a good suggestion and puts them in plain sight, instead of forcing someone to sift through a good suggestion and guess at it. It allows them to go back and elaborate their suggestion based on a criteria in order to HELP THEM fix the problems so they won't get as much negative feedback initially, and allows people to better accept them initially. What's better, people saying they hate it and leaving because it was really poorly done, or people saying they're interested, but would like to see a little more tweaking before they back the suggestion? The latter, of course.

    Also, there are PLENTY of good suggestions on this thread for people to goo off of, the problem is that they are constantly being buried under the bad ones. People can't be inspired if their inspiration source is being covered in sparkle furry mary sue clutter.
  7. The | Suit

    The | Suit Agent S. Forum Moderator

    Simply put - has anyone proven them self as a measure to say what is good and what is bad.
    By creating a successful example - as a role model for others?

    Or is it a case of blind leading the blind - with personal subjective opinions mixed in.


    Also to be clear - I have no problem with people disapproving a thread.
    My problem is people creating a thread to disapprove idea's of a thread. - Which is just silly.

    There is also a huge difference between.
    Not liking Furries for not being creative.

    And Not liking an idea because it is bad.
    One case it is a biased opinion that has no merrit. Because after all it is biased.
    The other is general concern for a bad topic. In which case you should direct it at the thread writer.

    Popularity will win in the end. CF will not be adding any new races to the game. It has been said numerous times. Any races hence forth will be done by modders. So - the populairty of the idea is going to be based on the community and who will step up to develop the idea further. Then finally the number of people who eventually downloads it.

    If the thread is truely popular - people who know how to develop the the race will step up and create assets for it.
    Then people will download it.

    If it is not - it will simply just die out. Suggestions require leadership to push it through.
    If the Writer of the thread doesn't want to battle it out - even against a wave of disdain. Then the thread never had any hope in the first place.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
    cyberspyXD likes this.
  8. Monochromegoggles

    Monochromegoggles Phantasmal Quasar

    I can give a perfect example of a good thread, Suika Ibuki's Anodynes are a shining example, and this lead to Bietol's Novakids, which have been confirmed.
    Now you said that people should post their own suggestions to give a better example of what to do for a good suggestion. Yet we have good examples of alien race suggestions that people want, and yet people are still writing and making bad suggestions... now why is that?

    Well you should have said so before, because your previous statements have alluded to "Don't like it, make a new suggestion or stay quiet."

    I never said I was anti-furry, I said a lot of furry suggestions are lacking creativity. There's a difference. Assuming that I dislike a furry suggestion because I'm somehow biased against furries is silly.

    Only IF the person is biased. Stating what is wrong with a suggestion is not being biased.
    And biased=biased? Great example...

    That's what we've been doing and trying to address.

    Fair point, but people are still gonna have to vouch for mod support of their race to modders. Which still requires people to voice their opinion on race suggestion threads.
  9. AldoKaido

    AldoKaido Starship Captain

    You know I have a great way to see if a design is alien or just pretending to be.

    "Can you refer to it as an earthly animal?"

    If yes,then it's not alien.

    Which is the case for about 80% of things here.
    Monochromegoggles likes this.
  10. Peachy

    Peachy Star Wrangler

    First I'm just gonna start this response off by saying that I always hated the " If you don't like my work then let's see you do better" mindset because it assumes that the person saying something has the nessisary tools or skills to do so and kind of avoids critism.

    You start off by saying that bad posts don't affect me, and technically you are correct. But I apologize if maybe it's a bit unreasonable to be tired of seeing the same stuff over and over. I have literally seen race suggestions on the same page with the same name that both make similar mistakes. If the poll at the top is any indication a majority of the people here are too.

    You then go on to say that I can make a suggestion anytime I want if I want an alien race. (And in fact , I have been!) but then you say that I haven't because I'm afraid of critism....? While you are a certified internet arm-chair psychologist I can't help but notice you don't know what you're talking about. And just to make things clear I never said that alien races were inherently better than furry races. All l was saying was that a more alien design was more interesting in my opinion. Sorry if my tone implied otherwise.

    And for this next part, I'm sorry that I worded my sentence so badly. The point I was trying to express wasn't that a popular idea was unanimous, I was tying to say that something could become very popular due to pandering to a specific type of people yet be bad to just as many if not more people, so the popularity wouldn't be all that important seeing how it's hated more than liked. (Granted the point I was trying to make wasn't a very good one but I thought I'd clarify)

    After telling me about how if the OP can't have any personal preferences or opinions on race suggestion without making his own you then enlighten me on how I feel about furries. I actually quite like furries, I have absolutely nothing against them and at one point I actually was a furry. And you might be surprised but I don't resent them either. I'm perfectly fine with people liking what they like. Most of the time whenever I comment on a furry suggestion that needs improvments I don't mention the fact that they're animals as a flaw because I don't like it when people do that. But even if I were to resent them I wouldn't be busy for long seeing as most furry suggestions aren't very popular. Now there are exceptions to the rule like the really good Delsuti race, but generally speaking the average one paragraph long space wolf thread isn't something the average person will be envious of.

    And I think that maybe I've been to harsh on this thread because I don't think this. My actual opinion would be that furry races could be more creative, I don't think they're not creative at all. So no you are not right. And I'm sorry but I don't agree with your next point. Like Mono said it doesn't take beeing chef for someone to complain about burnt food. Sure that person may not be able to make grilled chese but they still have a right to say something. And if someone thinks you need to have a suggestion to say anything about suggestions does this also include praise? Does that OP need to make sure that person's culture section is in check before they can compliment thier culture section? If the OP dislikes everyone's suggestions can they just decide that since no one is properly certified they won't listen to criticism? If the critism is completely logical,well thought out and polite will you not think anything of it since the person is currently in school and doesn't have as much free time as you?

    This next part you monolouge for a bit about how you can't change destiny and that people keep the same level of skill in something for thier entire life. Obviously advice has no impact on people and talentless hacks like me should be quiet and sit in the corner until we become useful. There are plenty of good suggestions out there, the Novakids for instance are a shining example of creativity. But somehow I can't help but notice that despite that people still make bad races anyway......

    [Sorry about the snarky tone this response has, I began writing this in a foul mood, just know that I understand that some of the stuff I said was uncalled for and that I don't really mean it]
    Monochromegoggles likes this.
  11. The | Suit

    The | Suit Agent S. Forum Moderator

    Because they don't read - the other peoples suggestions.
    If they don't read the other peoples suggestions,
    how likely is it they are going to read one - saying suggesting how to make suggestions.

    Biased people are those who are against a specific race. Instead of contributing their own designs, they go against specific ones.

    Actually you made statements of how a race could be made. But not an actual rate. Before making my statement I made sure to check all threads made by you. To see if you have actually suggested a race which fits your M.O. Which you haven't. Though I briefly looked through your comments on other races, and its fine. They are reasonable in that regaurd.

    But it doesn't change the fact - it isn't going to change some one's method of posting. People who post bad idea's do so without bothering to find out what a Good idea is first. [/quote]

    It doesn't matter if the thread seems - popular because there is no one against it. Hence creating a pseudo belief that it is a good idea. After all CF is not adding anymore races. It is going to come down to who is actually ready to support creating that mod, and how popular it is going to be when released. Keep in mind all races hence forth will be mods, and are optional for download.
    Your argument would have been valid Pre-Novakids era. But now, no longer so.

    In the end Lore really doesn't have much effect on gameplay. It is all going to come down to design. You can put all the greatest written lore by amazing writers like Brian Jaques or J.R Tolken, but if it looks like a 2 yr old drew the pixel art. Its never going to take off. While on the other hand if it is drawn by some amazing artist [ no names directly come to mind ] - It doesn't matter how bad the lore is. People will play it anyway and make up their own lore.

    What I am basically trying to say is, The point being. A bad race isn't about Bad idea's and good Idea's. In the end it is really about the dedicated of the OP to push the race idea into fruition. If the Author is dedicated and open minded, he or she might be willing to accept modifications of crituqes. But thread's like this serve no benfit either way. It comes down to the Authors state of mind.

    I am not saying you need to be a Chief to complain about bad food. What I am saying though - is You are a Perfectly Capable Chief who has the options to create their own food, if they don't like what is being served. Which is quite a different scenario all together.

    Actually I said they won't change Overnight. Which is quite different from "entire life" - or melodrama.

    I have no problems with Snarky responses as long as the points are valid.
    cyberspyXD likes this.
  12. cyberspyXD

    cyberspyXD Tiy's Beard

    Alien means "not from here".

    Most races that are similar to real life animals in suggestions have their own home planet or place of origin that's different from other races in Starbound which makes them "alien" to the other races.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
    The | Suit likes this.
  13. AldoKaido

    AldoKaido Starship Captain

    Do you realize you just contradicted yourself over something that doesn't make sense here.
  14. cyberspyXD

    cyberspyXD Tiy's Beard

    No it makes perfect sense.

    They are aliens as with every race including humans.

    You need to word what you said properly. What you should of said was alien in appearance.
  15. AldoKaido

    AldoKaido Starship Captain

    No,I don't need to word anything,YOU need to read what other people write before awnsering to it.

    "Can you refer to it as an earthly animal?"

    "Can you refer to it as an earthly animal?"

    "Can you refer to it as an earthly animal?"

    "Can you refer to it as an earthly animal?"

    "Can you refer to it as an earthly animal?"


    So this time I'll be sure you see well.

    Let's say I take a hedgehog,and I throw him on Mars.

    He'll be a martian.

    But he won't be an alien.

    Because hedgehogs are from here.No matter how hard I claim it or how many legs he grew up.



    Not there
  16. cyberspyXD

    cyberspyXD Tiy's Beard

    Lore for a hedgehog race would state otherwise, negating your point as you don't have authority on that lore.

    I expect you not to flame me for stating a fact. No matter how horrible the race, the creator determines the lore.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
    The | Suit likes this.
  17. The | Suit

    The | Suit Agent S. Forum Moderator

    His [cyberspy] point is - Just because the creature looks like it is from earth, doesn't make it any less of an alien.
    An Alien does not mean unique - all it means is, not from Earth.

    Just because it is not from earth - doesn't mean it won't have any shape based on earth creature.

    The shape and body of creatures are not based on randomized generator in the universe. It is based on physics and effecient design based on the environment around them. Certain body shapes are ideal for certain situations, hence it is likely - if an alien were to exist, it may have similar characteristic to a creature on earth. If the planet the creature came from had similar conditions as to that of earth.
  18. AldoKaido

    AldoKaido Starship Captain

    Oh yeah

    The whole



    Hey that gave me inspiration to do my own thread!

    "Meet the Blonics!

    The blonics are a race of hedgehogs not-hedgehogs-on-legs that could be physically described as hedgehogs on legs although they are not hedgehogs on legs.

    They are totally alien and come from their own original planet (do not steal),planet Dirt.

    Any correlation with the hedgehogs from planet Earth would be totally unintended;but in fact,they are so alien,you don't have to worry about that.

    Because we say so.

    They're so alien,we don't really care about what you think,we said they are alien so they are.

    Also I say Elvis Presley is still alive somewhere in Antartica so it's true as well.And I am totally a fox.Because I say so,and what I think is better that what you think,and I don't care if you think that I don't look like a fox I decided I am fox so I am fox now fuck you I'm a fox."

    So what do you think pretty good huh : D

    It's so good in fact I think the mods will pin it as a model suggestion thread.Each time you'll tell me anything about races I'll tell you I wrote this and I'll direct you to it so you can learn from me.

    Cause I'm great.Cause I'm a fox.
  19. Monochromegoggles

    Monochromegoggles Phantasmal Quasar

    You literally just refuted your own argument about making a good race suggestion as an example to show people how to do it. If they're not gonna read it to make a better one, then that means people who make good suggestions as an example are wasting their time trying to help others by doing so.

    You seem to be under the assumption that those here who are voicing dislike furry threads only critique furry race threads. Therfore, you cannot say they are biased if you have no proof that they do so.

    So if that's the case, your statement about supporting a thread by telling them how to fix it would be useless as well. (Because apparently people can't change and are gonna post bad stuff and crash and burn. right?)

    No, it still stands because even if no more races are going to be added to the game officially, people still need to impress the modders to make mods of their race. Modders aren't going to waste their time making a mod that they don't like or the community doesn't want.

    Not true, lore was written in order to explain elements of the game that exist. Lore explains the reasoning behind the bosses existence, the behavior of races, and the hostility of certain npcs. It gives us a glimpse into why things are the way they are. Now of course we can do without the lore to play the game, but it's less interesting to play a game that has all these things going on in the background and we're never told why that it. If Starbound were like Terraria where history was never important or added from the beginning, ok. But codexes and lore are a part of Starbound's overall feel. Therefore it's expect of people suggesting a race to provide this background.

    But you stated before that if an idea is bad, it's gonna fail regardless of our input. If so, it doesn't matter how many times they bump or revise.
    And we've stated before, threads like this ARE useful. It HAS helped people suggest new races that are better and more well thought out.

    How do you know? Can you tell that a person critiquing a thread is an excellent storyteller and artist? No, you can't. You missed the entire point that a person does not NEED to be either of these in order to bring an issue to light. And again, it's not the suggester's job to fix a broken suggestion.
  20. cyberspyXD

    cyberspyXD Tiy's Beard


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