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Theory: Novakid Origins [ SPOILERS ]

Discussion in 'Starbound Discussion' started by Zebe, Jun 10, 2016.

  1. DarrkkFreya

    DarrkkFreya Void-Bound Voyager

    I'm baffled too, I should have remembered right away... I chalk it down to nervousness, being at work at the time, and just generally having too much on my mind.
    Actually, this piece from the end cinematic looks like red herring in worst case, and very incomplete at best :zzz: It certainly is not enough to make villages "not fit into lore".
    Actually... I wonder what should I do now with all this information? Make a separate topic demanding explanations and to notify any potential modders to go ahead because nobody else will? Make a petition to Tiy and rest of developers, begging them not to do this to Novakids and novakid fans? Be lazy and just make good old-fashioned stink on Discord?
    I know it's silly, but petition somehow seems most appealing to me - I know they normally are for serious stuff like politics and environment and such... But can't someone use this tool frivolously for once? ;)
    Anyways, need to find a petition site with signing being as simple and straightforward as possible...
  2. Zebe

    Zebe Space Kumquat

    Have you seen the other new cinematics? Seems to be on par with the quality. It might change, but I don't see it being a red herring. If you're doubting, the answer from Tiy you've got seems to further prove it. "their origin is explained now, sort of" I can see this meaning the ending. Perhaps they included it just to let people know of the Novakid origin.
    I'm not sure how complete Tiy's answer was. I'm sure the devs have better things to do than answer questions, so the answer might've not been very thoughtful or complete. Perhaps he didn't mean it was completely lore reasons, since, y'know, they have done major changes to the lore after they knew the 'kids were going into the game, and surely they could've made changes to include them, no? We'll see will they include more Novakid stuff in the game in time, though.

    I don't know what you should do with the info you've got, but that's not really the topic of this thread.
  3. Squeegeeie

    Squeegeeie Scruffy Nerf-Herder

    Going back to the original post (I kind of skipped over most of the why there is no content for Novakid discussion,) regarding the Arc gate, I'm starting to think the scratched off mark on the side is more likely to represent the Cultivator itself. Working with the presented theory, the Cultivator may have created the gate, but I don't know that he expected to die, so he left his own mark on it. After his body broke apart, the Novakid that were present and aware enough to know what happened may have modified the gate, removing the dead Cultivator, and adding their own mark as a new race. While not directly involved in the events that took place, they were all once part of the Cultivator, so deserved some mention, some sort of documentation of what happened. Much later, when the gate was discovered, the documentation of that event caused much confusion too many, and no Novakid are strong who care to remember or clarify the meaning.

    Or maybe the same Cultivator remnant speaking in the cinematic also spoke to the Novakid and instructed then to make the change, and instead of fixing it nicely, they simply scratched the Cultivator out, feeling that was good enough.
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2016
  4. Ludovic

    Ludovic Giant Laser Beams

    You know, thinking back on the novakids I wonder if they're even MEANT to have settlements.

    And I don't mean just from a development standpoint. I mean from a literal lore standpoint.

    Their very lore implies they have a startingly short attention span, always on the move, always looking forward to new thing.
    If anything, that doesn't seem like the sort of people who'd really take the time to "settle down"(you know, doing the "settle" part of "settlement") to build grandioses cities or villages.

    If anything, a novakid "settlement" feels like it would be a very small trade/bartering outpost. Really more of a set of ramshackle temporary structure where a bunch of novakids more likely just happened to meet and set up shop to do all their individual tinkering on their own side for as long as the spot would remains because ideally by the time you'd somehow find it the original founders would have likely moved on to new horizons anyway and whoever is there is whichever other novakids decided to "stop by" to set up shop for a time when the place was starting out, thus adding some elements of their own before moving on as well.

    Recall that even stuff like "teaching" is not something the novakids really do because they get bored too quickly anyway so they'll just watch and try to reverse engineer stuff themselves through constant tinkering as they move on, leaving trails of unfinished or half-finished projects in their wakes.

    Because even if settlements by novakid could happen like this as a "thing", the fact would be that novakid nature(and how it tires out of old/boring things eventually) would mean that any such settlements would be doomed to be wholly abandonned someday.

    Thus, a novakid's "house" ultimately might be nothing more and nothing less than it's ship itself since it's what allows it to keep moving in the first place.

    So in a way, more than any other races, they likely fit as the "only" race to never settle down any permanent constructions anywhere.

    If anything the most likely thing a player could find, if that was ever implemented, would be stuff like a lone salloon or tavern or a short trading post platform where a novakid trader somehow decided to drop by to see what the locals might be interested by or what things they could have for sale themselves before he himself or she herself moves on again on their endless trek.
  5. DarrkkFreya

    DarrkkFreya Void-Bound Voyager

    But shouldn't we still find Novakid NPCs/structures once in a blue moon? I know they are rare, but completely missing in the sense of 0 canon NPCs as of now? I don't think Novakid can even be called a "race" at this point, a real race is supposed to consist of more then just one specimen and/or have more then one very vague sentence in the ending cinematic for a story. Right now - sorry Chucklefish - it's NOT a race, it's just a picture on the character creation screen & a small bunch of assets under a meaningless name.
    I really feel like developers use this lore standpoint like a convenient excuse to abandon the subject altogether and never do anything with 'kids ;(

    (sorry for edits, most of this comment was offtopic and I've moved that offtopic stuff to another thread)
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2016
  6. Ludovic

    Ludovic Giant Laser Beams

    To be honest I think part of the question is less "We don't want to do anything with these" than "How much would 1.0 be delayed by providing more content for these?" and not wishing to make promises on the exact whens and ifs such content could be added.

    So I wouldn't be surprised if we were to see their content only as post-1.0 once they garner enough time to add such structures/etc into the game. Recall that new NPCs also means entire new selections of dialogues to write out, with the potential for different lines when talked to by any of the existing 6 races of the game so they can appropriately comment if the player is an avian/apex/glitch/etc

    It would be great to see such content... but as indeed a crowdfunding goal while they still have an entire game to ship I can understand why they don't get priority right now. Recall that there are still people asking why there isn't a trace of proper human settlements/colonies out there so before they would focus on "Well, what more can we add to the novakids beyond that hint of their origin in the story?" I do believes they'll focus on indeed improving and further polishing the original six races, humans included.

    I'm actually hoping I run in what I think might have been an human refugee camp again someday, in fact.

    If anything, an hint at the Novakid's origins as they are doing there is already a VERY good step in the good direction if you asks me, and IS a good way of tying this "young new race"(as it IS implied to be part of their background that they are much younger than the other races) into the overall lore AND story missions.

    If anything, just the simple origins they have now written for them does even go a long way to explain why they are so innately skilled at developping technology on their own compared to other races who have been working with centuries if not millenias of accumulated knowledges and research.
  7. DarrkkFreya

    DarrkkFreya Void-Bound Voyager

    IMO, if they didn't have time for t hat in the whole 3 years the game have been in development, it's unlikely they will be ever a priority, if anyone from Chucklefish actually wanted to do anything with Novakids, they would have done at least a little something by now. It doesn't have to be something big, even having just one NPC in the Outpost to greet players with a dozen or lines of dialogue will help - and that requires just a few hours of coding :mad: If it goes like that, there will always be other more important things for other 6 races to do, even 10 years after release, considering the game even gets updated after 1,0, something I seriously doubt that will happen, especially in terms of large features such as new dungeons and storylines. I know they promised it, and I really, desperately want to believe them and be proven wrong... But the truth is, people in general tend to lie under pressure, to just tell things that the lynch mob wants to hear to calm them down in the immediate perspective. It's not bad and not good; it just is.
    And... I hate to admit it, but looks like I finally have become a part of that lynch mob :( . I am not proud in any way for compounding the aforementioned problem... but it's what it is. I just cannot keep positive outlook on the matter anymore :( I wish I could have at least a bit of drawing talent, even a little bit.. Then I would already be working on my own Novakid furniture and whatnot right now instead of complaining ^_^
    And, by the way, there ARE human settlements - USCM bunker, prison and survivor camp, and I think Outpost also qualifies as a "human settlement". Isn't it enough for now, especially considering there is another race that haven't received ANY development so far? Granted, 2 of 3 (4?) of those are in the format of dungeons with hostile guards, but you can still defeat those guards, scan the stuff & use it for your human colony. There is big fat nothing for Novakids.

    And I still want to stress out that I do NOT demand to have Novakid content for 1.0 at any cost. It's fine if they want to finish up base storyline first. It's that they obviously think that things are perfect as they are and refuse to even consider it as another option for after 1.0 that infuriates me :( If they cannot even promise it "at some point after 1.0", it's a sure sign they don't plan to do it... It's infuriating to know my favorite race will likely never get any developer attention, and infuriating to be unable to do anything about it myself... Would it hurt them to say something along the lines of "Sorry, we cannot do it by 1.0 because of time constraints, but we consider this as one of the post-1.0 additions"? If they are purposefully avoiding the whole topic, that means they have something to hide :(

    Okay, that's all with the ranting for now. I'm so done with this topic, I'm so done with Novakids and I'm done with this game. I'll go check it out in a few months after 1.0 is out to see if someone more talented then me did something about it. Let's see if I can keep my promise... It was stupid to become so emotionally attacked to a "bonus" race... I really should cut the losses now and at least try to call it quits. Arguing with anyone will not help, so sorry I kept on it for so long. I will stay pessimistic about it until I actually see anything being done, and we can also "agree to disagree", if you will. I'm sorry you had to listen all of this, Ludovic. I really am. I just cannot stop being upset :(

    Last edited: Jun 17, 2016
  8. Ludovic

    Ludovic Giant Laser Beams

    On the other hand, there is stuff that causes people to think that the actual USCM bunkers/prisons are actually pretty much likely on the way out as content that was made for the earliest day of the game but may likely not be fitting with the present lore anymore.

    And in comparison to that, the fact remains that all six of the original races would need to have content of their own when they have been there since the very beginning and the novakids were only added later to the game.

    It would be odd for most players for the developpers to suddenly go all out with original content for the novakids when there have been many who felt the original six could still be further fleshed out, especially when the rewritten plans for the game's story(now displayed in the actual story missions and progression to be released with 1.0) overhauled so much of the original lore for every playable races.
    Like, now that the Protectorate exists people aren't even sure if the USCM still has any places left in the lore because the Protectorate IS humanity's faction/empire with the protectors as the closest thing it may have had to a military. Which means that a lot of these dungeons will be either due to disapear or to be heavily overhauled to make them fit in the new lore.

    So with the originally six only just starting to feel truly fleshed out(I mean, how long did it take for an established race like the hylotl to finally get their villages? They were one of the orginal six AND one of the races renowned as being the most populous yet it took the longest time to get -any- of their settlements), it would be hard for me to tell the devs that they HAVE to produces anything for the novakids until they feel the original six are truly in the state they want them to be.

    To actually give them a part within the story missions themselves, however small, is something that feels like a lot already for the novakids for a "bonus" race to the game. And if anything... I prefer that they indeed tried to figure how to make them truly fit in the lore of their universe before producing content for them, because -then- later once all the core of what they want done for 1.0 is done may they be able to better start thinking about how they want to further include the -presence- of the novakids in the wider universe now that they finally have "roots" to build from thanks to an official inclusion within the greater lore.

    I feel you're letting your worries about something minor like this affect you a bit too much.
    I mean, the truth of the matter is that they ARE a bonus race that could only be added later in the development of the game. It would have been undue, especially with their place in the lore undecided until likely only very recently, to start developping content for them when they have been unsure yet how they wanted to handle existing stuff for the current six "main" races?

    I can understand feeling strongly for their "faction" and I'd LOVE to see actual novakids NPCs, but I have to keep in mind what might be the priorities of the devs if they want to hit their main goals for 1.0
    For all we know, the best implementation of novakids NPCs might not even be to give them settlements of their own than to make them the occasional citizens of -other- races' settlements. After all there is certainly no such thing as a "novakid empire" and the carefree/wandering nature of the novakids would likely make them the perfect candidates to integrate themselves with other races. So even a "novakid outpost" would likely have to NOT just be purely a novakid-populated town but likely could only take shape if other races were present.
  9. DarrkkFreya

    DarrkkFreya Void-Bound Voyager

    Yeah... but it's not all that minor for me :( It managed to snuff out my excitement for 1.0 when I learned that Novakids won't be a part of it. I don't know how much it makes sense for you, but I was really looking forward to playing as Novakid in 1.0, and becoming involved in new gameplay like colonies and crews and story... But that part of the gameplay is completely irrelevant for a Novakid character. Why even build colonies and why hire crew if I cannot even have someone of my own kind? I would kill to have even a single Novakid crew member, but. alas, it's just not possible. It is also incredibly depressing to travel the universe and never ever meet another Novakid.
    I know that everyone's mileage is different, and it is actually minor for pretty much everyone else... But I was really looking forward to it, and it hurts when it turns out I had nothing to look forward to. And I have to wait an indefinite amount of time to actually play as a Novakid. How long can it be? 5 years? 10? Never? I would really appreciate if modders will fill that gap until developers get (or won't get) to the task, so that I can actually play as one and not feel like the most miserable lonely thing in the entire wide Universe :rofl: Actually, that sounded a bit too dramatic... how about "actually play as one and feel a part of the game rather then a sloppy last-moment addition"? I think that sounds better. Actually, I don't care who makes it first - modders or developers. If that turns out to be modders with a large content-heavy mod, I will happily accept their version of the lore and other stuff as my own headcanon, install their mod, make donations if they accept them as a sort of paying for DLC, and never bother to update the game again <3

    I know my explanations sound like a pile of melodramatic bs, but... everyone's mileage is different ;) What is minor to one can very important to other... and vice versa. You think human settlements are important, I think it's important to develop every race equally. I really want to "agree to disagree", I'm tired of all the ranting. :p It's not leading anywhere. I just had to get this off my chest, and sorry you had to listed to it/read it.

    And you know what? I decided to at least try/pretend to do something about it :D I will be lurking modding forums and discord and ask from time to time if anyone is planning a Novakid mod, and if I can help with anything. I cannot draw, yes, but I can do other things, like writing dialogue or code :) Who knows, maybe there is a good artist there wanting to give it a try, but could use a helping hand on the coding...
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2016
  10. Ludovic

    Ludovic Giant Laser Beams

    The thing is I actually have played as novakid and do enjoy their stuff.
    But.... for me it's not THAT large of a concern if their content is not ready by the time 1.0 hits.

    I mean it's a bummer, but an entire deal breaker?
    I've been playing this game since it's original early access. There wasn't even any novakids yet until years had passed. Heck, we couldn't even upgrade our ships back then, or perform quests beyond a bare chain of tutorial quests using placeholders.
    So that they have not made "content" for the novakids when they weren't even implemented until recently in the game's years-long development history is not something I blame the devs for.
    And technically, they HAVE now done so since, actually making the race playable, giving it an unique craft tree and ship, finally getting their unique respawn animation AND a place in the greater lore of the story tying them to one of it's central entities rather than just making them bystanders who "just happened to be there". And that alone is not "nothing" because THEN it gives people a true base to build upon. I mean, one might argue that this way you DO meet a novakid NPC in the story, and possibly the most important of them all; the source of their very origin with a major presence in the story.
    This is finally setting up a place for them in the universe that may begin to truly guide how they could be developped further from then on without having to retcon it later due to lore changes as may be happening with a lot of human structures.

    If it's not coming with 1.0, it will be coming post-1.0.
    And if it's not coming even then later long after 1.0 is out because exhausted developpers have decided they need a breather or to move on to new aspirations.... modders will find a way to add them it in the game because devs will have left the ability to mod the game in the first place.

    It's not a big deal for me. I just want to see how far the game truly will get before I make a judgement. For devs to include a shoutout to their origins as part of the core story of the setting is already well beyond what I expected to happen for the "game's bonus crowdfunding goal" race.
  11. DarrkkFreya

    DarrkkFreya Void-Bound Voyager

    I hope modders get to it much earlier then "later long after 1.0" :p That's why I rant everywhere - to get the idea that devs won't do it to reach to the possible modders out there, so that they will stop waiting for CF if they are holding it up hoping CF will do it.
    It's better to do those things before everyone, including developers, gets tired of the game and moves to greener pastures... Frankly, I don't give this game that much of a lifespan. It's not a huge MMO like WoW to keep user's attention for years to come, and there already are plenty of bad reviews and bad feelings, so it's surely a jagged road ahead for developers to rebuild even a small fraction of former popularity. Anyways, if anyone will get inspired, I hope I'll have a chance to help them get their mod out in the world :3

    Another idea just popped up in my head... if CF are short on time and hands, why not just outsource the Novakid stuff somewhere else? They were not even their idea, they were made by a long gone player, so there is likely no sentimental attachment to them like to other six races which are their brainchildren, so putting a small degree of creative control into foreign hands should be no big deal. There are places where one can get artists and developers real cheap (<<Ukraine :p ), so why not diversify the development little? This way, they can get content out faster. I don't know their situation of course, it might be that they are short on money by now (especially if they had to give loads of refunds) for that to be feasible. I have no idea why they haven't outsourced when they realized they are gonna overshoot the initial estimate by a big deal. Would have been easier on them and easier on players. That is a total shameless offtopic ofc, and I will remove it if mods or you ask me to. I know CF philosophy and morals are probably just as important to them as Novakid content for me, but still... It could have been an easy way out of a difficult situation :(
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2016
  12. Ludovic

    Ludovic Giant Laser Beams

    Back on subject(and deleted my previous post since I do feel I was straying from the original subject too much myself) I've been wondering.... we know that it is the Cultivator who sealed the ruin... but that the novakids are somehow displayed on the Ancient Gate meaning that if going by present lore, the Gate would have had to be created after the Cultivator was shattered in the now spoiled ending.

    So I've suddenly had a thought after the current conversations about novakids structures and the perceived lack of them....
    ... what if we have been staring upon their work all along without knowing it?

    After all, we always assumed the Gate had been the work of the unknown "eight race". But what if it wasn't?
    We know, or have hints, that the novakids were born from the cultivator... a very advanced being. We can likely assume that this is where their innate prowess with technology come from but that their lack of an ability or will to keep records of things is why it is somewhat doomed to a flux of growth and regression whenever they hit peaks beyond their ability and desire to focus on the attention to keep improving it.

    But it made me think that this might have had more impact than we thought.
    After all... if going by the theory of the novakids as the spawns of the cultivator, it might mean that the earliest form of the novakids might have also been it's most advanced. After all, they were the very direct shards of the creator and not only thus likely subject to lingering remnants of it's vast knowledge, but also very much direct witnesses to some of his own works to inspire them.

    Which made me wonder suddenly.... what if it was the novakids, half-remembering remnants of the creators, who had been the creators of the ancient gate in the first place?
    We could have had those famous "Ancients" in front of our eyes since the very beginning and not even realizes it because the novakids themselves never bothered to create records that would have helped them remember in the first place on their slide toward becoming their present form. The way their technology "progresses" would also be a perfect explanation for this scenario, too.

    It could explain the "eight race" as a variety of things... the cultivator itself whom their ancestors might have been faintly aware to be part of but know within their heart that he was "gone". The Ruin, which they might have instinctively known of and thus refuse to depict as the being who shattered them.
    It could even be something like the penguins which they might have intended to display but then forgot who they wished to show the face of there and then shrugged it off because the gates were "good enough" as they were already.

    Which would really be a most novakid of justifications.
  13. DarrkkFreya

    DarrkkFreya Void-Bound Voyager

    That actually sounds cool! Other headcanon of mine is that Novakids are not shards of the dead Cultivator/descendants of those shards, but were actually created by him out of sheer loneliness, in an attempt to have someone like him, someone who will not be afraid of him and will treat him as a family and an equal rather then worshiping him like deity :) The other six races (sans Glitch) are a result of good old-fashioned evolution, and Cultivator may have seen the potential in them, taken a liking to them, and so he have chosen them for dangerous task of fighting the Ruin. But, while he might like the 6 chosen races and have a faith in them, he still loved Novakids the most, as they were literally his flesh and blood (or rather metal and plasma :D ). Novakids loved him too, and Cultivator knew they will never run away from danger, that they'd want to protect him and will rather confront Ruin at the prime of its power themselves then see their beloved father going alone. So, he decided to protect them - he locked their memories of himself and Ruin conflict away, erased every memory of them from the races' cultures, and sent them away to the outskirts of the galaxy. Yes, it was pretty underhanded move, but what an overprotective parent won't do to keep his offspring safe? That's why they don't have an artifact but have their image on the gate - grieving Cultivator just couldn't resist but leave one little sad memory of his dear Novakids.
    Anyways, it backfired in the worst possible way. Novakids not only lost memories of their father and their past - they lost the very ability to retain long-term memory (basically, a reverse, race-wide Alczheimers), quickly forgot all their technology, became stagnant aND nearly went extinct. And, if the PC is a Novakid, the story becomes even more sad - it proves that Cultivator pretty much crippled them for nothing, miserably failing to keep them away from Ruin.
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2016
    Deep Space Amphithere likes this.
  14. Ludovic

    Ludovic Giant Laser Beams

    Doesn't sound bad either.

    But I do think it's been implied that novakids are one of the younger races with origins specifically unknown so that air of mystery may indeed mix well with an origins as descendants of shard of the cultivator.

    In a way, I like the idea of them originally being the original unamed Ancients. It add another layer to their background story and doesn't feel specifically feel like the novakid themselves would see even the discovery that their ancestors and were so advanced compared to them as much of disaster than just a challenge to individually produces better tech as other techs may have inspired them.
    They do feel like a race whose odd culture of not caring so much about the past is not neccessarily something they would feel particularly bad about because they aren't really goldfish as others seem to think than just don't neccerarily worry about the baggages of the past to wholly focus on the experiences of the present.

    So like said, even if an individual novakid discovered they were related to the Ancients it wouldn't be as much of a disaster than a challenge to match their technology and maybe someone in turn may be inspired by that individual's effort which might lead to a wave of progress among novakids individuals before things stabilized out again to their "average" level because, like said, the deal with them is less a lack of memories than a lack of concerns with the past itself when the present has so many experiences to offer still. In a way it's possibly their main strenght because it could be said that it's something which allows them to keep moving forward no matter what.
  15. KingTomato

    KingTomato Jackpot!

    Im pretty sure Tiy stated somewhere that novakids will play a special part in the story. But who knows :lickitung:
  16. TobyM88

    TobyM88 Void-Bound Voyager

    imo i think that the "pieces" (Much was simply lost, though fragments of myself, ancient and wild, broke away and became something new...) were scattered. some of them were close to eachother, and combined into the "something new." the novakid. ONE NOVAKID. YOU. THE PLAYER. (sorry for dramatic font) so basically your theory except there was only one novakid created. :)
  17. Ludovic

    Ludovic Giant Laser Beams

    It's implied there might be more iirc.
    Plus, you know.... that theory would kind of void the possibility of an entire party of novakids.

    And I need to get up to date on my Avian lore, because I recall they had something called the "sunborns" which may have helped uplift them in the first place?

    "Sunborn" sure feels like a title a primitive races would award to something like the novakid when meeting them for the first time in their history((edit: though in hindsight that would lead one to wonder if the sunborn predates the cultivator or not. Then again that bit may have been retconned out anyway so I do need to get up to date on that lore really).

    ... not that the novakids themselves, if that is still canon anyway. would recall with their own personal record-keeping habits.

    Also.... -SOMEONE- had to build all those ancients gates/etc that were likely built AFTER the Cultivator was gone, too? ;)
    I mean, unless the thing was prescient, I doubt the Cultivator would have been able to engrave the face of a novakid on the Ancient Gate(s) and "challenge" gates before being shattered.
    So if we go by the theory that the defaced "8th race" 's depiction was actually a reference to the Ruin(which shattered the Cultivator in the first place) and that Novakids are fragments of the Cultivator AND original creators of the gate built over the Ruins' seal... it'd make a lot of sense that after building the Gate they may have decided to deface the depiction of one being to shatter them so.

    That is, until they eventually all began to decide to all go their own ways and forgot about it all because Novakids aren't good at record keeping sadly.

    But I like the theory of"The novakids were the Ancient all along!".
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
  18. Another Kevin

    Another Kevin Phantasmal Quasar

    Inb4 a mod butchers this thread.

    Don't heat yourselves up too much, boys.
  19. TobyM88

    TobyM88 Void-Bound Voyager

    Who knows, I was only guessing. the idea that the novakids are the ancient does pique my interest, and its good to know this thread is still alive anyways ;) However, the "ancient" novakids I think would be cooled down to an extent to look more like they have hard exoskeleton-like patches spread throughout their body, maybe dimmed lighting from their star-like mass. because otherwise they would be glowing and whatnot,so it would be a tad bit obvious that they were novakids if we ever get ancients added ingame. -_:)_- only time can tell after the next few major updates.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
  20. Guest0241525

    Guest0241525 Guest

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