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There's no Desire to Explore

Discussion in 'Starbound Discussion' started by Giraffasaur, Jan 20, 2016.

  1. The MechE

    The MechE Existential Complex

    Not quite sure I follow. Yes, bad is subjective, but how would only offering all possible planets at the end be better design? Maybe there are some people that prefer that all harmless planets are, for example, garden and all extreme planets are, for example fire worlds? I find it very hard to believe that most people would prefer all extreme planets to have the exact same environment instead of like an extreme forest or something, but there are exceptions. I can understand all harmless planets being garden though as you don't want to expose the player to too much at the beginning, but would it not make more sense to expand planet options per difficulty tier as opposed to keeping all forest, desert, etc. planets as mostly harmless and having the only extreme planet be that fire world?

    Are you saying you are one of those exceptions and prefer a lack of variety before end-game?
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2016
  2. Tamorr

    Tamorr Supernova

    that is why I said the design is subjective to the individual. It is not a matter of what is better, but what functions. At least in what there is now on stable. In appearance it functions to progress one from tier to tier well enough. The landscape for those worlds have been lifted up or dolled up (still some yet got that treatment) give that specific biome/world a look the is general to that biome.

    The difference is mainly in the terrain, and what materials make it. You get that in 3 sizes. Structures above and below; designated and designed for each biome. Some cross over into other biomes because they seem to fit or to give more chance at finding that specific set of things. Airship being a good example at that. I don't need to go into detail on how the structure system works, so I'll leave that at what it is.

    Being put into the tiers only serves it purpose for the function to progress. As you progress, you have more options to look at. Most people I guess don't like going to lower tier; maybe because it is "beneath them" I guess. All speculation on that bit, but regardless you get diversity within the various individual stars. The difficulty is irrelevant when considering variety. They are all pretty much the same difficulty throughout the game anyhow. As long as you yourself keep up with progression. Sometimes you will see lower and higher tier planets among them. At least in my universe it is that way.

    Then again my universe isn't the same seed number that everyone is accustom to. Should be the same variety though. Granted it is not a mix & match variety that koala had; which was not really variety, but just random generation procedurally laid out throughout each sector, which no actual definition for type of planet beyond a few designations. What we have now is planets with actual definition to what type they are, that has some variance in mini-biome; above and below. Granted the planet is somewhat tier locked; however will appear, or chance to appear in 1 tier above and below, exception I think is the garden, which is always in the lowest tier star system. The Hot planets have yet to be touched on, and technically is not the end game anyway.

    What I am getting at, is not that it is better, but more like it is different approach. To build up to a final tier, and get rewarded. Do I believe it is the best solution or way...? Not really, as the only complaint I have is that the planets are not progressive enough like it was in koala.

    And no not the mix n match biome mix thing, as that would be just a bonus goal to achieve. What I mean is the progression. Back in Koala the 1st tier there would be a selection of biomes, and only those type of biomes. Next sector/tier, another batch of biomes is added to the mix, and continue the process up to gamma in the very least, as the X sector I considered unfinished to begin with.

    Now with that in mind; I was hoping to see planet types just being added to the mix with each tier up. Not being just these planet types. They did it a pseudo way, which is having the tier lower or higher sometimes appear among them. I am only 50-50 ok with this. Am I an exception? You tell me, as that is another's prerogative to say, not my own. I am just me.

    So basically I am saying it is not a bad design, since that is a matter of perspective. It is just a different design that does function and do what it is suppose to do. Lead people forward. From tier to tier. This is basically the skeleton of the whole thing. Sure I am not fully happy with the variety, but I am happy with what they did do, because of the lack of variety. Making the environments looking more appealing or fleshed out, and not just some random mix n match scenery or palate. So on that I say it is a success and a step forward towards what they might intend for this style they want to flesh out. I'll have to see when the next "Story" update hits.

    Don't want to mess with the nightly, but will check out when comes to unstable, and get a better feel on what direction as a whole they are going. Right now it just feels like it is barren, and only because they have not put the story in yet that they have mentioned. Makes me always curious.

    I am just easily entertained, and probably a dieing breed it seems, as patience, imagination, and self entertainment seem to be thrown out the window most times. Or it seems. At least the developers are pretty creative... :nuruawe:
    Gilligan Lanley likes this.
  3. Iaeyan Elyuex

    Iaeyan Elyuex Cosmic Narwhal

    I explore each planet and moon I can, except airless ones and ones that have meteor showers. Each new planet is a new, randomly generated level to clear. I plant a flag, then make a lap around the planet. I have a big "collection" of planets, and I mark dungeons I want to gut later.

    Also, I'm still looking for the blueprints for Lunarangs and Saw Chakrams, and I've discovered that weapon blueprints can be in chests on the surface.
    Tamorr likes this.
  4. Lazer

    Lazer Existential Complex

    I'm wondering what, if anything, you would consider bad design. I feel like this "defense" could apply to any game, no matter how bad or boring. Why does there need to be a videogame involved at all if you know you'll have to rely on self-entertainment? I mean we all sometimes stare at patterns in ceiling textures or whatever and pick out shapes and imagine little stories about the shapes. That doesn't mean I'd claim the ceiling was a well designed game.

    Koala builds, though not without flaw, were absolutely more fun to explore, and the current system is worse in that regard.
    bk3k, The MechE and Boshed like this.
  5. ChrisM277

    ChrisM277 Void-Bound Voyager

    I think you're not far at all from the truth. Right now the only way to cope for me for now is to start new characters and also building more colonies .__.
  6. Tamorr

    Tamorr Supernova

    Defense...? On something that is hardly even referring to what was said. That wasn't really even part of an end note, it is statement. I don't easily get bored. I am beginning to think I am the only one that feels that way, hence that statement. I never said a rely on, so I don't even know where you are going with that. I don't think you fully understand what self-entertainment is, or rather should say a individual that entertains themself; whether it be through imagination or practice. All it simply means is one to always find something to do no matter where they are. It is not Only imagination based. It is more incentive, or goal based I guess. I don't know how to explain that one clearly... At least what I have in mind. (Don't know what you mean by defense anyway, as it doesn't make much sense in the context of what I stated)

    Then from what you are saying is imagination doesn't play any part into good design? That's a farse in my opinion. If everything is given, I consider that a bad design, at least when not intended. The way I see it, some things do have to spur or leave left to imagination, or else the person next to you mind as well be telling you the story while you play. Figuratively speaking.

    The Koala version & Giraffe version, at least where exploration is concerned; is pretty much the same or on equal footing. Granted there are quite a few differences, that I mentioned. It still feels the same as before, just more focused. I guess you and I have a different outlook of what exploration is, as well different approach.:nurutease:
    Gilligan Lanley likes this.
  7. Oberic

    Oberic Spaceman Spiff

    While I agree that current build planets are fine and dandy for exploring, Koala era exploration was indeed a lot more enjoyable.
    The planets were a bit more unknown, even if it was probably a desert planet, you weren't really sure until you went down to explore it.


    There are only two types of tier 2 planet, Forest and Desert.
    Either one in Glad Giraffe (level 2 planet) is always going to be primarily their main biome type (understandable), with one of a very small pool of sub-biomes for the remainder of the planet.
    Unless something has changed, both have two options; Forests have Flower or Mushroom, and Deserts have Oasis or Tar.
    This means there are really only two types of desert planet, and two types of forest planet. Whereas the Koala era planets had atleast half a dozen planet types at tier 1 and 2, with nearly every type of sub-biome available for any planet.
    Going by just biome mix diversity, Koala wins.

    Not to mention starting planet variety.
    The most fun I ever had on a starting planet was as my latest incarnation of my main Floran. The planet had nearly constant acid rain, trees were few and far between, night-time monsters were especially strong.. the planet had a few destroyed metal structures with pools of acid in them. It was really fun!
    Currently a planet like that simply will never spawn at any tier. And that makes me sad.

    End Edit.

    In Koala, you could beam down to a planet, and end up with pretty much anything.
    There was more variety in ground textures and tree variety, and it was more randomized. So it was always fun to see what you'd find.

    That said Giraffe planets are crafted much better, you know that you'll find what you need in the right places. They're a lot more consistent and reliable.

    But its the not knowing, the unpredictable that I (and many others) miss.

    It isn't about not being able to have fun with what we have now, it's that we have to try to have fun instead of the fun just happening.
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2016
    bk3k, Tamorr and Faeryheart like this.
  8. Tamorr

    Tamorr Supernova

    Well yes. Fun is different for everybody. And I do know what people miss from it. I mainly just put my own perspective.

    Biome diversity, yes Koala wins on that front.

    Terrain diversity, they have an equal footing.

    Palate swaps, Koala wins.

    What you mentioned of giraffe is what I mean by focused.

    Exploration is equal footing as well, it is just a different way between the versions. The explore of the unknown is still there, just in a different way. It is a matter of what to look at. Terrain is one of them. Structures mini-biomes are another. (the underground mini-biomes) On the surface, yes there is only a couple variations it has as a secondary biome. But mini-biomes are underground, and can vary a bit more. Structures go along with quite a few of them. So in essence it is not knowing what shapes and formations you are going to see. Granted you may run across some duplicate structures, but seems to be getting less and less with each version they add to that count.

    It might be a lesser degree of unknown, but it is still there. Just have to know what to spot or look for; which in itself is a contradiction.

    On end once again, of myself, it is just the way I see things through my imagination as overactive as it is and how easily entertained I can be. I am always finding something new. For me, I don't have to try to find this unknown. I don't expect everyone would be like that, hence my comment on one of my prior posts about a dieing breed. What I meant by that was I don't see as many that even go about things like I perceive or proceed to do. Through out my life I have not seen or heard of many that have the same kind of logic. Similar, yes, but not the same. Over the years I am also seeing less and less of similar perspective that I take head on.

    So might be just me, but I always do my best to consider how others go about things; which I have been doing for years being not able to find very many with even a similar viewpoint or in the very least use their imagination the way I do. At least I try in doing my best being considerate of them. Just the way I am, and I expect a lot of differences between myself and others. Which is the reason I formed a habit of making the best of things, since what other choice do I have. Always a silver lining in the midst of a dark looming clouds.

    Anyway enough about my perception and how I see things. I do actually agree with quite a few points that have been set out here and there. I know those vast differences, because I try to see every possible angle I can. Even those that I don't agree with. Never easy, but never hard either. :nuruneutral:
    Noir Korrane, Oberic and jakecool19 like this.
  9. Lazer

    Lazer Existential Complex

    It's almost like having a quintillion planets in game is completely meaningless if they're all bound so tightly to formula.
  10. WingedSpear

    WingedSpear Big Damn Hero

    Everyone here know how much they have improved Starbound since release, but the brutal changes dont always mean that they are better. If we all wanted a game with a good story and lore over gameplay, we wouldnt be playing Starbound, because, to be honest, thats not what i was expecting from this game when i bought it, i bought it, yes, after playing a cracked version of the game and loved the exploration plus survival features, now after the changes i stoped playing the game since is not interesting at all, usually, the players make their own story and lore in the voxel and survival games, so adding this straight line story with incredible predictable planets its killing what Starbound was supposed to be, an exploration game that should make you feel exited about what are you going to find, plus the obvious building features.
  11. Tamorr

    Tamorr Supernova

    eh, well; it is a matter of perspective... I mean The only version I ever got that way was the first one released. However I bought it like december 24 that year. Soooo angry koala start... for the most part... Mainly only do that sort of thing when there is no demo to see if said game will even run on my system. Regardless of that bit I have enjoyed actually each version.

    I guess I go about the game differently. What I expect of the game is to see where the devs are taking it. So WIP, and lots of changes. I expected a lot of things to change. Somethings were minor and some others were complete overhauls. Then there were additions.

    Exploration has multiple ways to define a way of play. I mean there are several different playstyles even within the Exploration playstyle. I don't mind the story additions, as that is lore of the universe. I wasn't expecting a complete sandbox, even when I first bought it. I was expecting a game that had its' own universe with at least some bit of history to it. IF I wanted a pure explore or sandbox I would go to other titles that are more so. I actually go between a lot of games, somewhat in rotation.

    But that is me. They have not failed my expectation, since they are still working on the game to finish it. And as I said, I am easily entertained; so excitement is simple to come by with me. Nice to see another view though, as each seem to see differently, even if slight in some instances.:nuruhappy:
  12. ComatosePhoenix

    ComatosePhoenix Subatomic Cosmonaut

    After playing the game for a while I think I get the feel for the tier system and its biggest flaws.
    its not so much the highered tier gear that is the problem. its how the game feels exactly the same AFTER you tier up. the bio-modules are the equivalent of keycards. got the 02 module? great now you can go to the gray planets. Got the Rad Module? now you can go to the green planets. the way these locks are set up makes them feel arbitrary and empty.
    It would be better if these weren't such hard locks on progress. So that you could experience and explore the worlds without these modules, it just becomes a challenge. Before I unlocked the O2 module, it was a chore exploring underwater but not impossible and sometimes well worth it if I found a decent treasure.

    I would prefer if the radioactive planets and hot planets were explored once or twice before getting the perfect protection modules. either by avoiding hazardous material, (being close to certain materials such as radioactive ore will damage you) or with specialized gear (rad suits/spacesuits) these hazardous planets would be great places to mine for actually exotic resources, like uranium and unobtainium. with this setup the multiple levels of technology are not locked behind these quest keys, and instead the quests are something you want to do to make exploring these places easier.

    "Normal" planets should provide a variety of materials, safe food, farmables, wood, but most importantly should be the best place to set up colonies. seriously, why do colonists pay better for a enclosed box on a molten rock then a beach front mansion on a virtual Eden? I'll set up camp on a radioactive planet and not only are colonists unaffected by the omnipresent barrage of gamma rays, my imported pine trees are not transformed into mutant tree monsters, my crops don't wither under acid rain, etc. they also should be the best place to find certain varieties of tech. after all if the planet is comfortable its more likely to already have colonists, refugees, or civilizations. Thats not to say the more hostile enviorment's can't have people. it makes sense to have USCM prisons on hostile planets for their harsh enviorments. the military bases can be placed for intergalactic strategy as opposed to local convenience.

    lastly some of the races imply a natural affinity or resistance to certain elements. hylotl naturally can breath underwater, Novakids have problems with water but are very resistant to heat, Glitch are somewhat resistant to everything, ect.
  13. Kirumaru

    Kirumaru Pangalactic Porcupine

    I think the easy answer to this question for me is that Minecraft is 3D.

    Without proper preparation (or building exactly on the spawn point) it's incredibly easy to get lost in Minecraft. I was just teaching my daughter how to find her way back to her buildings, but instead managed to get lost and have an hour long adventure trying to find my way back to the small house we built together. I'll be the first to tell you that Minecraft (in the long run) bores me compared to Terraria or Starbound (I know that's subjective). However, one thing it has that 2D games really can't emulate is this sense that you are exploring and charting a new world.

    Where Starbound -should- shine (but doesn't) is that each star system should feel fresh and exciting. The (real) universe is full of wonders beyond our imagination, but each star system in Starbound is roughly the same as one you've already seen of that same type. I want to find planets of pure gold, or liquid diamond. I want each jump to a new system to leave me breathless and stunned and how unique and exciting it is compared to the last. I understand how demanding that is on a developer, but I also don't understand why bother generating things procedurally when everything literally looks the same.

    It's a really tough juggling act, but what Minecraft does have is the ability to surprise me. Even with limited repetition and really crappy character "progression" it can still manage to make me wonder what's around the next hill, or down the next mineshaft. I'm not sure that can easily be replicated in a 2D environment. I certainly haven't felt that way in Terraria or Starbound.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2016
    Gilligan Lanley likes this.
  14. Gilligan Lanley

    Gilligan Lanley Space Kumquat

    I agree that it would be rather difficult. I believe that some of the planets need a bit more diversity tossed into the mix to spice up the exploration aspect of the game. For this fix, I've turned to the modding community; Fracking Universe to be precise. It adds in a lot of content missing from the vanilla experience, much like mods in Skyrim add to the experience. Honestly, I don't think I could ever go back to playing either game without mods. But I digress.

    And call me a broken record; and I'm sure this answer has been used a lot, but the game is yet to see it's next major content patch, which we do not know if it will fix this exploration problem or not. One can only hope. If not, we'll just have to look to the modding community for this fix; just like Skyrim.
    Tamorr, Firepaw Da Cat and Kirumaru like this.
  15. Kirumaru

    Kirumaru Pangalactic Porcupine

    I completely agree.

    Simply because I want to be surprised, I cannot play without Frackin Universe. It's just not possible for me anymore.
    I remain hopeful that the 1.0 build of the game will hold enough wonder for me to enjoy it for what it is.
    But I also remain hopeful that support for Frackin Universe will never die. It breathes so much life and creativity into the game.

    I'm currently playing a Felin character - first time with a mod race.
    I've had my eye on Avali for a long time, too.

    Mods certainly give me a lot more of what I want and expect out of Starbound (which is great!) but at the same time I would love for ChuckleFish themselves to try to incorporate more of what (I feel) players actually want from this game. That is to say, variety and reasons to explore an infinite universe. I mean, unless I'm adding a new mod, I rarely even leave the screen my starter system is on. I travel to stars in the vicinity of my starter world and can practically get everything I need without ever exploring farther. How exciting would it be to be able to find somewhere in this vast space the destroyed Sol System? or any of the other races homeworlds? or a planet where everything was made entirely of silver? I feel like hidden gems like that would be easy to add in and could certainly keep me questing for the next big discovery of that "treasure planet."
    Gilligan Lanley likes this.
  16. cooltv27

    cooltv27 Heliosphere

    this is the exact sentence I needed to tie together my feelings on starbounds progression
    in terraria, you start off fighting really weak monsters (day time) then quickly go to fighting... I mean hiding from much stronger monsters (night time) then you get a new weapon/armor and you should be able to deal with them... actually no they are still pretty scary. as you get better gear you are still fighting the same monsters, the exact same monsters. only now you are much stronger and they are no longer scary. this pattern continues all the way up, strong monsters, progressive gearing, monsters not so strong. then new stronger scarier monsters appear and the cycle repeats.

    in starbound you start off fighting some what scary monsters, then you get new gear and find them noticeably less scary, then you to the next level and the monsters are as scary as they first were, and the cycle repeats.

    terraria made it fun because the first logical conclusion to those monsters is to run and hide, and after a pretty good while you are able to deal with them. starbound lacks that feeling of fear, that feeling that what you are fighting has the actual possibility, probability even, to kill you. any single enemy you fight can be beaten by simply running at it with your weapons swinging, you will near 100% of the time kill it before it kills you. every. single. common. enemy.
  17. Zzymotic

    Zzymotic Seal Broken

    All this idealist talk has got me bummed, considering that vast majority of it is video gaming unobtainium. Here's what I think would be ideal.

    I feel that the current mission progression/story-line is alright, but with conditions:
    • Keep the main story line, but get rid of the planetary pass-cards a.k.a. bio-implant bullshite
      • Invulnerability to environmental factors should be gradually acquired, partly prior to touchdown on more dangerous planets - culminating in complete protection once the planet has be thoroughly explored
      • Perhaps SAIL requires the character to collect data on the planet's biosphere/environment
      • Higher tier armor should afford certain degrees of protection (in conjunction with the promised tech system overhaul)
    • Increase the variety of star types, planet types, biomes, and include a unique star system mechanic
      • These unique star systems should generate biomes and planet types not found anywhere else; along with rare generated structures, materials, and items
      • Players shouldn't know what type of system they're in till they've arrive at the destination and scan the planet
    • Add a random campaign generator
      • This builds upon the colony task system
      • This ties in with basic NPC interaction
      • Randomly generates a quest that the player can choose to follow - spanning multiple locations: on plants, within a system, and/or between systems
      • Players may be able to side with certain organizations (Miniknog, Apex Revolutionaries, USCM, USCM defectors/prisoners, etc)
      • Mission objectives include: boss fight, target hunting (assassination), scavenger hunt, creature capture, escort/NPC capture, sabotage, and construction
      • Bosses, targets, locations, etc are all subject to random generation and are scaled based upon the threat level of the location where the quest was accepted
    Well, those are just some suggestions. I think they would help diversify gameplay.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2016
  18. ComatosePhoenix

    ComatosePhoenix Subatomic Cosmonaut

    Aw don't be so negative about it. lots of things your discussing are not only able to be done, but seem to be on their way in already. there already is a dev post about the return of protection gear to replace the nano skins. Also the new dev post on NPC's is pretty sweet. With the expanded crew we could see the spaceship utilities expanded, a few laser cannons, boarding parties, orbital strikes, we could dabble in space piracy.

    Actually the "scariness" of the monsters has been pretty inconsistent. The first planet I went to didn't have anything "scary" but it certainly was annoying with snail monsters that took a billion hits to kill. the second planet was much more threatening with a few monsters with ranged attacks. Then there was a lull where nothing I found required a more complicated strategy then well timed swings. All that changed was the number of swings it took. The last planet was actually deadly with constant swarms of bee like creatures and hordes of camouflaged rock monsters.

    Of course even the simple monsters can be deadly if the environment allows. falling into a pit with an adult pop-top is not a fun place to be.
    jakecool19 and Gilligan Lanley like this.
  19. Zancuno

    Zancuno Phantasmal Quasar

    ....This just gave me an idea... Thank you for posting this.. I have been tinkering with the lucario mod and recently made my own set of crafting materials with it's own specified station. It uses the ores to crystallize them into new crafting components. I call them auracite.. although this does strike an idea. Since I'm making these new ores, why don't I (in future builds) make whatever these crystals craft need specific blocks from different worlds in order to make the weapons, items or armor. Like idk, if I wanted to make a purely dark armor, you have to go to a planet forever trapped in midnight and get obsidian. There are so many blocks that are not used when you are just mining in worlds that could have so much potential as well.
    (oh I don't own the lucario mod btw, it belongs to Ochiru Yuki, I've just been allowed to tinker with it is all and propose improvements)
    Gilligan Lanley likes this.
  20. Lazer

    Lazer Existential Complex

    Maybe you're right about this "vast majority," but not having each planet type bound to a single progression tier is obtainable. In fact, it was the state of the game for quite a while.

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