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There's no Desire to Explore

Discussion in 'Starbound Discussion' started by Giraffasaur, Jan 20, 2016.

  1. The MechE

    The MechE Existential Complex

    I think he was referring to the whole "it's not bad design. It's different design" thing in your post. I get where you're coming from; We all have different perspectives, but I think the real value in discussion comes from saying what you personally like/dislike instead of "this is different." Also gives devs more to work with.

    If an engineer gave someone two flashlights and the person said "These flashlights are different." That doesn't really help drive change.

    And I know that's not all you did though. You added your own opinions in there which is good. The whole fence sitting thing just bugs me sometimes.
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2016
    Tamorr likes this.
  2. Tamorr

    Tamorr Supernova

    @The MechE One reason when I do mention the word different I usually give at least my own opinion or viewpiont to hopefully be picked apart to figure out what I mean. I may not be the most articulate person, as I am not well at explaining things, but I try.

    Of course the comparison in flashlight thing, I would be thinking more in design. They would be the similar, but different. I know that wouldn't say much, but to choose one over the other is not by function, as that is the same. Bad design does not come to play in it. Just preferable design. One is more appealing than the other; whether it is the internals of the flashlight, what batteries it uses, or even the casing they decided to go with. So that is a decent example you have there, I like that.

    Goes to say that it isn't bad design, unless it doesn't function. Now if one flashlight didn't work/function, that would be bad design.

    In my eyes it is the same comparison to Koala and Giraffe versions. They both functioned, so there really isn't a bad design, just differences that set them apart. Granted it is a bit more complex than the flashlight analogy, but the premises is still there.

    I may not be the best to elaborate, as I personally have been misunderstood my entire life by quite a few people. That just gets me to keep trying. :nuruhappy:
    Gilligan Lanley likes this.
  3. WingedSpear

    WingedSpear Big Damn Hero

    With that logic, id rather want them to release a ''Starbound Classic Koala'', with all the old features, and i would stick with that one instead of this new one that is soooo boring...
    CorraidhĂ­n likes this.
  4. Tamorr

    Tamorr Supernova

    that was one reason I have a back up... I technically can play it, if I pull from my external... I have been backing up most of the releases; mainly so I have a fall back if something happens to go wrong. :nuruhappy:

    would be nice in theory, but wouldn't have much of the new stuff since the coding for it was reworked. Especially the modding system. But I do see what you mean, as it is preference to what was over what they have now.
  5. Lazer

    Lazer Existential Complex

    The danger of someone breaking sequence doesn't seem as bad to me as the danger of the universe being bland and samey.
  6. Lintton

    Lintton Guest

    It can when the player decides to only stick to the safest planets. Which is often what happened during a playthrough.
  7. LilyV3

    LilyV3 Master Astronaut

    Well a sandbox game by definiton is an open world game. With these restriction story driven SB losses the sandbox and open world declaration. The old verison had an open world, because you could enter each biome at least, Now "hiding visuals" behind a story is not a good decision for a sandbox game.

    of course the old had it similar by not having all planetary types available int he lower tiers. But now the game is more a gauge than ever because a lush (formerly grassland) planets will always be the same threat. The other game had at least an upward compatibility allowing grassland planets to exist as valid challange and highier tier content as well. Now these planets are stuck in their existence making the sandbox a smaller one to have a variety of fun within. Especially when you ontop think about how plant and dirt diversity existed in the old versions grassplanets. Not even this is left.
    Lazer likes this.
  8. Tamorr

    Tamorr Supernova

    Well I've seen many open world type games or at least ones that had an open world to it at some point. Quite a few JRPGs are quite like that. Small area at first, then bigger area to explore, and then the whole map. Of course I am referring to some of the RPG Maker esk type games, but originally that is how they were. Dragon quest, Final Fantasy, and lots of other titles. The start you off in individual areas more often than naught and lead you from place to place. That is the essence of Traditional RPGs that I grew up with. Then at some point you will be able to cross the ocean with a boat or ship of some kind. This expands the world to continents. Somewhere down the line Airship becomes available and more areas are accessible. As some were ones you either had to tediously walk or couldn't get to in the first place by any other means.

    What I am getting at is the barrier thing has been in games for a while now, but granted it takes shape in different forms depending on the game. Some like the zelda series; the original and some that later came to being... Had much of the areas blocked off till you did something special or unlocked it by some means. The rest of the world is easy to walk around, if you know how to or what to avoid. Ocarina of Time had it pretty much you had to do these unlockings in a certain order or roughly in a certain order; otherwise you would get stuck. I was one to get stuck, as there was no way to progress further since the area I needed to unlock I should have unlocked at an earlier time. I did things in a different order than usual, hence being not able to progress.

    In Starbound I kind of look at it like that. Each segment just expands from one to the next. Granted the stars seem to harbor the difficulty, but isn't that the point... Regardless of that one thing I do agree with is the diversity. Which is sure they have lower tier planets and each tier seems to have not many variation within the system. System being the planets you seeing around the star. I would hate to see things on what people call realistic; where hot is near and cold is far, as that would make it about the same as it is now. Not much different.

    What I am agreeing to that I liked of koala was that each tier added the types of biomes with each tier you ranked up to. As in, at first there would be few you see at the first tier, and then next tier you would see more added onto that. That is something I do miss from the Koala version. Since that shows a bit of progress through the tiers. Shame things are difficulty locked to biome, but I think it should have been locked to star & planet, and not the biome. What I mean is the star would have 3 difficulties, 2 for the gentle stars. The primary difficulty the star is about and chance of having 1 tier lower and 1 tier higher. Which they somewhat did, but it is sadly biome locked and not quite proceduralized or randomized. Which is something else I enjoyed.

    I do enjoy the exploration aspect of what they have so far, as there is still a sense of it; it just may take a bit of another perspective in order to see it though. There is more to exploration and Adventure than meets the eye. Well the way I see things. I know the cons and pros of both Koala and Giraffe versions; both have lots of each, and so much that each is practically a different game entirely; if not a different playstyle/playthrough.

    However I will reserve my final what I think for when the story update comes out and see how that plays.

    The one thing to note though, is I do honestly believe having the last tier being the diversity one seems like a reward for what has been accomplished. At least if what I am hearing correct on that last tier, which is not in the stable version yet. If it was done up like how Koala was, then the last tier really was not rewarding enough. It just felt like another number to get higher on the chart. And the primary reason I never set foot into the X sector of Koala edition. Just didn't interest me enough with reward. There was actually not much incentive to progress, and isn't that one thing in the game that is somewhat needed... So I kind of understand the reasoning behind the way they went about it. Progression is part of the game no matter how you go about it. And if one is feeling like they are not progressing, and just doing; then what is the point of progressing?

    The Koala edition might had very great exploration, but had horrid progression. Or rather it had not so good progression. The summon items just felt arbitrary as the tier system. Granted it is similar now with the current version, however there is actually more defined points in progression, rather then summon kill go to next. May seem like it is similar, but now they added walking or battling through to the boss, rather than just having to summon and be don't with. That never feels right unless you have already fought the boss before. One thing I was 50-50 with on terraria. But that is a whole other story and game mechanic.

    I can sit and contrast many games that I have played that use the sandbox or open world mechanic. Sandbox is just that a simple playground that the user themself decides what to do with the tools given. Just like what literally the word is. If there is nothing but sand then I foresee sandcastles or various other things. Sometimes people bring their own tools like buckets shovels, and possibly other toys. That can be represented as the modding community. Now the playground is setup it is for use to decide whether we like it how it was built, or utilize what is there.

    I have always looked at things quite like that, in a simple similar way. Especially is the term "Sandbox" comes out, as that is the origination of the term in the first place,or one of them. Thinking outside the box comes from many things, but can be compared to simply bringing ones own tools to the box full of sand.

    So really on an end note, exploration is really what ever you make of it. As it is more than just sight seeing. It is experiencing mechanics, environment, functions, and various Adventure type things to overcome. To seek out something one has in mind to get, to go beyond; even if it is a single step at a time. After all Columbus needed a boat to cross the ocean, and as well needed a crew in order to cross it. There is a bit more to it than that, as he was an explorer and seeker more likely, but had to appeal to the rulership to find new land. He had to think outside of the box in order to get his goals in motion. Anyway like mentioned in the beginning, there is a lot more to exploration than meets the eye.:nuruhappy:
  9. LilyV3

    LilyV3 Master Astronaut

    the item summoning was obviously a plceholder and had nothign to do with how restricted specific planets were to low tiers. The way of progression and the change of making specific planetary types not available as high tier threats are isolated decisions.

    Also JPRG's a la RPG maker and final fantasy are NOT open world games.

    ther eis nowdays a lot less to meet for the eye in exploration than before.
  10. Tamorr

    Tamorr Supernova

    They are in a sense. Open world sandbox is a pretty broad term. It just, by society has been narrowed in definition over the years. Some say skyrim is open world, and morrowind, but they have limited space. Definition of open world is free roaming. And by that definition is does make the earlier games having that element, even if in more of the end game type of thing. You do have free roam after a while in the game. Open world does not mean every game has to have a near infinite borders. So in the case of FF and other similar it is more of a sandbox open world rather than a full on. However like I said it just has an element of it, and not the full thing. After all in the early games it is more evovled through story rather than what you can do within the game, so the sandbox and open world part are reduced to meet the story standards.

    Elona Plus would be the best sandbox open world example within a limited world. As there is a lot to do within the mechanics of the game. You may have free roam from the beginning, but the limitations are that of meeting the dangers and suffering the consequences. Of course in that game it is more of an adventure than exploration. However you do get to explore the generation and mechanics of the game. Generation having a double meaning since you can play the children of your hero near endlessly in generation after generation, if you know the way to go about it. The other part is in the form of dungeon crawling, cause there are static and random generated dungeons on the map that will appear and disappear as you progress in the game. The static ones may remain, but random ones tend to do that. Among the static ones they may only be static on the map and the levels may be random. Like the first one proclaimed as the puppy cave. You would have had to play the game to know the reason it is named that.

    There may be somewhat less in the eye, but quite a bit is still there. Gates may seem arbitrary, but it had that before. The only difference is how many biomes within each tier you can venture into, and the way you go about pseudo unlocking each tier. I just hope they do put in the other 2 paths, as that would open it up to different ways to progress. So i do know where you are coming from with the variety in biomes part. That is the part I did put in explanation that I wasn't too happy with either. But I am one to always find a way to explore, even if it means going about it a different way. That is me though and I wouldn't expect everyone to meet that, and do my best to understand, and usually do; since I know the many differences between the 2 drastically different versions. Well in some areas it is vastly different where others it is either minor or similar to a degree.

    It might be just the way I go about things that makes it pretty easy for me to explore just as much in the current version as the last. The only thing that stops me from playing at the moment actually isn't the exploration part, but the unfinished progression part; and the fact the last tier isn't in game yet. Main reason I am hoping they do have the alternate ways to progress added. Waiting for completion to see what they have in mind for the game.

    So yes, they have downed a certain part of exploration, but there is still quite a bit left. Then again as I keep mentioning, it might be due to me being easily entertained that I see a bit more to it; overthinking maybe or over imagining I guess... Still I can see where you are coming from.:nuruhappy:
  11. The MechE

    The MechE Existential Complex

    I don't think this is a problem. If people want to play safe, that's their choice. It's not like it affects anyone else. Plus, just because a planet is a forest doesn't mean it has to be safe.
  12. LilyV3

    LilyV3 Master Astronaut

    Open world is defined by accessabaility of the world, not its size. In Morrorwind you can go anywhere form the beginning no matter if yu did any quests of the story or not. In fact you can even "end" the game in 5 minutes or less. Thats the definition of an open world game. If te majority of the games world is hidden behind ths progress of the story as Final fantasy and most JRPG's do it snot an open world game anymore.

    You cnanot explore as much in the current version as in the one before, becauxe technically there is less in the current version as before. That is just not correct by technical terms. Variety decreased a LOT, even with the addition of more subbiomes. It just made the game lose a lot purpose to explore, there is no need to visit 100 different lush planets you won't see anyting unique on them anymore. Aside just how landscape is arranged. That was in Koala still very possible to meet somethign nique in its composition.
    Boshed and Lazer like this.
  13. Geomexis

    Geomexis Big Damn Hero

    This is incorrect. You're applying a misconception to a game genre solely because of the recent "Sandbox Boom" we've gotten, Sandbox games have quite frequently locked content behind progression. The first Fable, and most of the earlier JRPGs are prime examples of what actual Sandbox/Open-World games are, people tend to forget that just because a genre has had its ceiling raised doesn't mean the floor raises with it.

    I agree that the game needs more diversity, not because it's a Sandbox but because the basis of the game is heavily tied to exploring environments and locals with semi-random generation. I'm also fairly certain Chucklefish fully intends to use the old biome progression system, they're likely using the current system for ease of use since it's easier to test biome data when you can easily sort through it by star type.
    M_Sipher and Tamorr like this.
  14. Tamorr

    Tamorr Supernova

    I said with the element of of, which means in part. It does open up after a while in stages. Each stage being more and more that you can roam around in. Final Fantasy 7 being one that people prize so much. Also the reason i didn't say it was full on open world, just has the element of it. Yes parts of the story conceals portions of the world, but it becomes more open over time; which is a different type or style of it; hence it only being a mere element rather than full on.

    A game like morrowind starts off restricted until you finish designing your character and tutorial. Once you exit out of that building though, it is full on open for the most part. If you didn't choose certain skills though you will have trouble getting into certain areas due to it literally being locked, but that is another thing entirely of course. And one can choose.

    The old ones seem more linear in how the world opens, while these new ones tend to have more open in the beginning.

    It seems you are focused on only the one type of exploration, but no biggy as I mentioned I understand that part of exploration being stifled for those looking specifically for that type of exploration. Koala might of had more of that type, but some have even said roughly the same thing of that version to a degree. The part about variety that is. Since some saw that colorful dirt as just a "reskin". Me personally it was just part of the variety. They basically eventually were saying the planets were the same in a sense. You & I probably looked beyond that. So I whole heatedly agree on the variety part.

    The exploration part however, since I tend to explore in more than just the environment of each planet and lack of the thing they did with progressive biome in koala, I find exploring still there. I look at terrain variation for one, which plays a heavy part. Sure each biome looks the same in the general sense, but that is like saying Big Trees National Park looks exactly like Yosemite National Park in the US. There is quite a difference, even though they are somewhat the same. The part of Yosemite I am referring to is the Sequoya (spelling?) part, since those have those trees that are similar in breed, the red woods. It is different landscape for each, even though they have roughly the same trees, or rather same family of trees.

    I know it may not be the best example, but is what I can think of. I tend to look further than seeing something new each time. Mainly because technically you are going to see all the content in the environment pretty quickly anyhow. Even Terraria has that problem in a sense. It is just more compact and on a single world, or 2 if you count the alternates. Each biome has their look in both games and that is the point. Can't say which did which better, but both you can easily say once you have seen one biome you know that biome to the T. It always plays or rolls out the same. The only difference each time, is the terrain/landscape.

    As to the Lush planet, that one was not even in Koala version. And in Giraffe version it is the starter planet, so it was imperative that that planet remains mostly the same. Generally because it is a tutorial playground that is suppose to ease the player into the game. Although can't say it accomplishes that though. This particular one is the only one that has a few primary things that are always on the planet. A mineshaft thing for one, and smoother terrain in general; although I have seen it with cliffs, which were usually around where it decided to plop the mineshaft down. Sometimes though beyond the variety of small ruined structures there is a chance for a random small thing to appear on it. Which is from the collection of small structures granted.

    I think I heard someone say they actually had a village or something on their initial planet once. The only things that seem to be unique to Lush is the mineshaft which is always there, granted not always in the same place and not always in the same orientation beyond the entrance leading down.

    As to the other biomes, they are mainly dolled up to be what they are for that biome. Really there is mainly a lack of biomes, even if there is quite a few already. that is the drop on having such a large universe to be in.

    so I only partial agree on the biome variety thing, since they improved the looks of them with more environment to it than what they had before. The fact they don't have progressive biome like they did before is what was stagnate. At least the look a lot better, especially the parallaxes they have now. The colored dirt thing though... I was 50-50 on anyhow. Would be nice for certain biomes to still have that to an extent, since it was nice to see.

    I find exploration in many ways, sometimes more than some, but probably also less than some others; seemingly more on the former to a degree. But that is probably the difference in perspective and not quite easy for myself to explain; when I am use to doing so. Can't expect everyone to have the same perspective, but I can usually see where most are coming from since it all makes sense for that part in which they focus on. May not completely see eye to eye, but at least there is an understanding to an extent or degree. :nuruhappy:
    Azidoazide Azide likes this.
  15. Lazer

    Lazer Existential Complex

    I don't know if there's really a gain to be had from debating the meaning of "open world sandbox" or whatever, but I do think it's conspicuous that Starbound has a quintillion planets that are all pretty much copies of 18 or so planet types.

    I know limitless uniqueness isn't a feasible goal, but 18? Surely we could get that into triple digits if they'd just let a few more variables not lock in to one another.
  16. Azur Lighting

    Azur Lighting Void-Bound Voyager

    18 and the only thing what changes when you travel to another planet is the loot, dungeons and the color i guess....

    Starbound has a great potential but... well i just will wait if they add more variety and add not just more type of planets, they can add a lot of things like black holes, Binary systems, weird constructions in middle of the space like the ancient gate, there a lot of things to add....
    Azidoazide Azide and Lazer like this.
  17. Shaadaris

    Shaadaris Giant Laser Beams

    I'm sure Chucklefish realizes very well that lack of variety is a problem right now, especially since the Giraffe updates.
    I imagine that once 1.0 rolls around and they have all the primary "gotta get this done" stuff out of the way they'll begin to add a LOT of new randomized and generated content.
    At least I hope... If not, there's always modding.
  18. M_Sipher

    M_Sipher Master Astronaut

    I always thought that was the whole fucking point of having a universe of several quintillion planets. So when they work on the post-1.0 expansions, which has always been a stated goal, there's tons of room to drop in new types of stars, planets, and sub-biomes, new dungeons and villages, without the player having to reboot the whole universe. Not to mention giving modders tons of room to do so as well, another long-stated design goal.

    This is not really a game designed to be "finished" in a traditional "finished game" sense. They're making something that's a platform for an extended period of expansions and additions. They have a "core game" 1.0 in mind now, and from that more will spring. And that's easier to do when you have, effectively, an infinite canvas to drop stuff onto.

    Also, the "variety" of the Koalas people keep clamoring for is exceptionally shallow and superficial. Oh goody, different-colored dirt. Look, more differently-colored dirt! This one has some snow! And different;y-colored dirt! Hooray! True variety comes with expansions and additions to the types of biomes, not grafting Red Dirt with Green Desert to make a planet, or Same Stuff As Before But With MOAR NUMBERS. The actual variety will come with the addition of more planet types, sub-biomes, and large-scale dungeons/villages.
    Tamorr likes this.
  19. BillMcD

    BillMcD Void-Bound Voyager

    Um... Why would you want to visit 100 different lush planets? The idea of having to cycle through hundreds of planets with no idea of what you will find when you are looking for something specific sounds like torture. Maybe it comes from me wanting to complete missions and find texts, but having to cycle through hundreds of planets with no clue of what to expect because you have no reliable method of narrowing down your options seems arbitrary and cruel.

    Exploration to me feels pointless without a human element (or sentient in terms of multi-species universes). Yes, there is stuff here, but why is it here? What does it mean? How does it work? The most interesting part of starbound I found was exploring to collect codex entries, because despite how shallow some people see the world, that depth is what keeps me exploring, something beyond raw numbers, mechanics or scenery. Its the reason why games like GTA, despite being "open world sandbox" feel so empty. Aside from the main story line its just a collect-a-thon.

    Yes more biome, star, and planet combinations creates "variety," but does it add anything to the interactive experience? What is actually gained?

    Ill be honest, I have only played the glad giraffe version. However, If the variety of koala just biomes, planets, and enemy difficulty being more random, I don't see how that improves on the game or makes it more interesting.
  20. Shaadaris

    Shaadaris Giant Laser Beams

    Couldn't have said it better myself.
    In that sense it's sort of like Minecraft. Except the devs will actually add content when it updates. *cough cough*
    But really though, I do hope that post 1.0 they keep adding story and progression content, even if it's infrequent. Because certain other games forget to do that and while they do add the occasional new things each update while rewriting 1/2 the code for the nth time and refurbishing a lot of mechanics nobody wanted changed, since there aren't any new goals it's kind of redundant and feels pointless.

    I hate to make this comparison, which has been done to death, again, but I hope it turns out like Terraria, where, at least to a certain point, we keep getting progression and story updates along with a lot of new side content and stuff to really make additions and changes feel interesting and complete. Maybe even integrating the two, with rare encounters on planets which launch entire questlines, and major dungeons being placed on otherwise random planets through the universe generation seed, which you can actually go to (but are unlikely to find without the prerequesite quest because space is big. Really big.) Add in some radient quests with character, good rewards, new unique items, hopefully some unique armors in the future, and other content and the like alongside that, and exploration will feel interesting.

    And the best part is, once the devs do consider the game "complete" and stop adding story and progression content, there will be modders who will inevitably continue. Since no voicework or modelling is required, I'm sure questline, content, biome, random encounter, etc. content will flourish in the modding community, which will continue to add to the exploration factor. In three years, the game could be 20x the size it currently is. The skies and stars aren't even the limit, since they can add those too.

    Of course, we're pre-1.0 and in beta, and the modding scene hasn't quite blown up yet, so we'll have to stick with what we have for the most part currently.
    Azidoazide Azide likes this.

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